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 PDS 7.2 polishing effort
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| Inert |
Posted on 21-05-2006 23:12
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 Posts: 388 Joined: September 08 2005 |
Uh oh. Who put that cross-hair on the galaxy?  Anyways, I think it would look nicer if you drew longitude/latitude lines instead of a compass. |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 22-05-2006 04:45
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 Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Leave it plain, don't overcomplicate. However indeed I will prefer grid lines instead of the compass, since we can then reference mission locations with the galactic grid. For instance Hiigara might be in grid square E7. For actual fiction reference using a realistic scale we would probably end up with a long numerical string plus the navigation target's "altitude" relative to the galactic core. All this, like the not very useful or practical compass (unless you're an actual stellar navigator) can be left out entirely save for the simple "rough" grid. Like I said above, I do not want you to waste time on amendments that may be unnecessary. For instance you don't need the spiral galaxy display if you denote galactic centre as a dot with a marker on it. The location name for that is of course, "Balcora (Galactic Central)" I would also like the "contested space" markers removed. We don't need them and can draw our own for our respective fictions over the territory map itself. Likewise I will give indications of fleet deployments and minor nation activities in the same manner. This gives a far better resolution to the project than simply bugging SunTzu for map amendments periodically or work with a way outdated map that tries to show too much detail. That said, before I forget it's time for "Vive la France" and acknowledgement of independent initiative. I absolutely will not tolerate any mindless fanboys going "can we have this?" without first thinking of the logistics involved. So if you want something, go through me. I expect that there will be zero input through this channel, which is excellent - it means SunTzu is free to participate in other projects. Edited by TelQuessir on 22-05-2006 04:49 |
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| Sun Tzu |
Posted on 22-05-2006 10:56
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 Posts: 528 Joined: September 08 2005 |
Re contested space: do you want to get rid of the text or include the grey area into the Vaygr space? The compass was made after Vanilla HW2. The loading screen for m12 uses it centered on galactic core and with a slightly rotated angle (the 'north' direction would be at 20?). I agree it is not especially good looking on that map. I will try the grid and other forms of standard galactic coordinates representation. With galactic longitude and a division by rims (Core, Inner, Outer), we should have usable coordinates too. |
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| Thorin |
Posted on 22-05-2006 17:43
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 Posts: 414 Joined: September 02 2005 |
Instead of griding it as you would the side of a world, I believe it would make more sense to grid it like you would from a pole; from the center out. After all, galactic center is the galactic interstellar reference point. |
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| Inert |
Posted on 22-05-2006 23:40
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Posts: 388 Joined: September 08 2005 |
Having a polar graph means this: It neither makes sense (unless you are well-versed in mathematics) nor practical due to the audience it matters most to. Edited by Inert on 22-05-2006 23:42 |
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| Sun Tzu |
Posted on 22-05-2006 23:59
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Posts: 528 Joined: September 08 2005 |
The three of us are talking about the same thing. Does it look better?
Sun Tzu attached the following image:
![PDS_Map_v4[207].jpg](../forum/attachments/PDS_Map_v4[207].jpg)
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| Inert |
Posted on 23-05-2006 04:28
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Posts: 388 Joined: September 08 2005 |
If you could, may I ask that you draw a grid for comparison? |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 23-05-2006 12:46
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
No it does not. I do not want a stupid rotary style representation unless you can point to me what sector a certain planetary capital is in. So do what I say and stop wasting my and your own time on things that do NOT work. Grid representation, standard 2D squares, is far more intuitive for quick reference than your utterly IMPRECISE polar system because interior sectors are smaller than exterior ones! If we have time to debate then we will do so. As it stands and with my RL duties I do not. And Thorin, what the heck is with you? Can't you comment and DEMAND changes BEFORE the time has come to DECIDE and MOVE ON!? And Thorin, you do NOT own SunTzu's map. As such he answers to me, not you. You have shown me nothing but indecisiveness, Thorin, and have failed on whatever tasks I have given you. For the past two years. As such do not expect to just spout things out of your mouth and expect my automatic approval. Yes, I am being demanding - because obviously I've wasted plenty of time in dealing out just why and how we require decisiveness in these matters. Final thing - on the term "remove the contested space areas" - this means REMOVE them entirely and integrate them to national borders. It does not matter if Hiigaran sovereign space has been occupied. It is rightfully theirs and will remain so and can be implemented in our individual edits of your map IF you allow this step so as to PREVENT the case of us hounding you for individually-minded changes all the time? Do I make myself clear or do you want to waste time and effort to the point of this very promising and excellently done item going down the drain just like Norsehound's map because of that stupid curse of INDECISIVENESS? Edited by TelQuessir on 23-05-2006 12:51 |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 23-05-2006 12:58
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Implement changes as they were stated in TWO very detailed posts of mine, or not at all. Ravinder Democratic Republic is to take the place of half of the Contested Space areas in the south. Their sovereign territory is very small - about 10% of the size of the Elyassian Union. Note the spelling, we are going to honor Norsehound's creation. Cush Federation annexes (on the map) the Ithaar. The Levii, another useless subrace, is the Nalthoran Republic. |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 23-05-2006 13:05
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Finally, Kassi Regime to the north west - but don't fill up all the empty space. Space has a lot of uncharted or unusuable systems still, and the Kassi prefer centralised bastions of power to decentralised industries. They should be about 50-60% in size compared to the Elyassian Union, and just as dangerous as a neutral party. Just remember this fact - I don't have to act like the hundred-times damned dictatorial figures of old if you people can READ and PROVIDE FEEDBACK instead of stepping on my toes. Acknowledge, or leave the job to me if the product of decisive paramilitary operations for your and my pleasure is too over your heads. Over and out. Edited by TelQuessir on 23-05-2006 13:18 |
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| Cobalt Shiva |
Posted on 23-05-2006 15:33
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 Posts: 118 Joined: September 07 2005 |
Tel, you silly, no one says 'over and out' - that's bad radio form, and redundant. I think you mean 'clear.' "This is tactical control..."
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| Thorin |
Posted on 23-05-2006 17:44
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Posts: 414 Joined: September 02 2005 |
I never said I wanted automatic approval. However, it seems that the time for discussion has come and gone before I had a chance to be involved, and for that I'm sorry. I'll leave the rest of discussion up to other communications methods, because this project is apparently in the final stages now. It is, by the way, an excellent map. |
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| yasotay |
Posted on 23-05-2006 21:30
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 Posts: 637 Joined: September 09 2005 |
I posted in the other map thread before getting here. 1. Recommend that the words "contested space" go away, not the overlap. Galaxy is big 3D place so overlap without war is very possible (see post elsewhere). Otherwise biggest "contested space" should be that between Hiigara and the Vaygr... 2. Circles or squares machts nicht... squares win. :smash: 3. Military Grid Reference System (World Grid System 84 being the latest) are a very useful tool indeed on relatively flat terrain anyway. (For Cobalt) Yasotay is rounds complete, over. |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 24-05-2006 11:40
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Now get me a timeline for said amendments, which are final for the present V9 universe state (feel free to make a 7.2 version for your Refinement effort) before I start to do the map myself. |
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| Sun Tzu |
Posted on 25-05-2006 00:17
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Posts: 528 Joined: September 08 2005 |
Warning: long post, heavy pics 1. About this thread The next time I use a thread for brainstorming I should state it in some highly visible way. Or rather I will refrain from doing it at all, since taking the time of reflection and discussion seems to be a useless waste. Multiple posts with capitalised words and unpleasant terms reminded me that this forum is on the internet after all. Thanks for the reminder. 2.The map file The map file is on Filefront: http://files.filefront.com/PDS_Map_v7psdzip/;5077028;;/fileinfo.html. I will not change anything pertaining to it anymore for the foreseeable future. The baby is yours. 2. Galactic representation Below is an example of the square grid, which looks more suitable to Vishy Anand than Melarn Soban. In the HW2 base documents (backstory http://www.relic.com/product/homeworld2/story2.php and concept art http://www.hwshots.hwaccess.net/main.php?g2_view=core%3ADownloadItem&g2_itemId=317) the circular representation of the Galaxy is used, by constant reference to the Inner Rim and the Outer Rim. Our current system of galactic coordinates is based on the same concept. The fact that sectors do not have the same surface is not a valid argument against a circular grid. The map is a projection of a 3D reality on the galactic plane. Any projection entails the same imperfections (eg our latitude, longitude system). Also the "smaller" sectors are also those where the 3rd spatial component is the more important (ie it is where the galaxy's "height" is the greater) and also where the number of star systems is the higher. Therefore a "small" sector can be seen as equivalent to a "large" one from strategic, politic and military standpoint. Now the coordinates. The galaxy is divided in the following concentric rings, from centre to the edges: Core, Inner Rim, Middle Rim (called the Wastelands for the South-West quadrant), Outer Rim, and Edges. Being quite large, each Rim is in its turn divided in two parts: A for the internal part, closer to the Core, and B for the external portion. Longitude can be referenced as "clock" coordinates. A few examples: - the fictional Elyassian capitol is in sector M-6A (Middle Rim, 180-210? section, internal part) - Kadesh is in O-9B (Outer Rim, 270-300? section, external part) - the overlapping space between Taiidani and Vaygr is in O-2A - the Shining Hinterlands are in sectors I-4A to I-7A To precisely locate stars or systems, you can use longitude and the distance from the galactic center. The grid uses the distance between Balcora and Hiigara as the measure unit. If we need to add the the third spatial component, latitude can be used. For example: - the Elyassian capitol is approximately at 195?-3.5 - Kadesh is at 280?-6.5 There is a little flaw in that system, which annoyed me for a while: the Turanic Wastes are not located in the Wastelands but on the Outer Rim. In fact, on Norsehound's original map, the size of the concept art Turanic Wastes has been doubled and it they have been pushed to the West. I did not change that since it can reflect the fact that no notable power has survived in the Western part of the Galaxy, leaving room for Turanic anarchic expansion. 3. Nations and factions For the sake of consistency, all Hiigaran vassal factions have been put under the banner of the Federation of Cush. There is no need for spatial continuity even with short-ranged hyperspace jumps while the core Hiigaran space sits in the middle. The way as I see it is that Hiigara has pushed forward the Federation of Cush in order to put all minor allies under a common structure to simplify trade and military coordination. You know how to change that.
Sun Tzu attached the following image:
![PDS_Map_v7a[208].jpg](../forum/attachments/PDS_Map_v7a[208].jpg)
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| Sun Tzu |
Posted on 25-05-2006 00:19
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Posts: 528 Joined: September 08 2005 |
2nd attachment
Sun Tzu attached the following image:
![PDS_Map_v7b[209].jpg](../forum/attachments/PDS_Map_v7b[209].jpg)
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| yasotay |
Posted on 25-05-2006 03:51
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Posts: 637 Joined: September 09 2005 |
Sun Tzu- marvelous work, my compliments. Someone should have warned you that the varied opinions would emerge. Thanks for the extra effort. |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 25-05-2006 11:59
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Indeed SunTzu I traded credibility for the sheer practicability of letting you know, to the last detail, the requirements of Third Era fictions from the horse's mouth. Instead of the horse waiting for his fodder for a couple of months and the end result unsuitable for consumption for everyone. Do realise that my position is no more desirable than yours, but I have no hesitation in doing what is necessary for the best of everyone in the long-term situation. The delivery of the product is perfect, down to the last ergs of initiative shown regarding the Hiigaran political maneuver in centralising her allies. Like how I treated this map, it is a controversial move that ultimately increases the probability of Hiigara surviving the next phase of the galactic war. You have, of course, no obligation to work for PDS or even to remain in this forum if you're against the strategy presented above. However, regardless of the outcome of this after action scenario, credit will be given where due without question. |
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