Discussion Forum: Conclusion to "defense field" technology by Glacialis

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Conclusion to "defense field" technology - by Glacialis
myrddin	#61 Posted on 20-09-2005 01:06
Posts: 16 Joined: September 06 2005	Quote myrddin wrote: Classically, if we can create one, a gravity field from outside is the least of our problems, being a much weaker warping of space than the one we create for the wormhole. Time proceeds linear to space, although the time-distance dilation effects can be a pain, even assuming we don't tunnel timewise as well as spacewise. Collapse has what you might call a singular result on objects inside, and it isn't to dump them out safely. Wormholes collapse of their own volition without something weird to hold them open (exotic matter, for example, or whatever we'll say the Hyperspace Core does). Or, as I recall from Hawking and Thorne, if the classical wormhole is simply a connection of two points, stitching together space as it were, stuff winds up at one or the other point when they break down. That assumes no singularity, and lets us get out safely, but then I'd almost have to take your meaning as assuming that quantum foam is distinct from the space that it probabilistically describes. How would you manipulate the two spacetime points together from inside spacetime? More, how do you get the 'elsewhere' component?


Glacialis	#62 Posted on 20-09-2005 02:48
Posts: 368 Joined: September 02 2005	What if exotic matter isn't necessary? Perhaps the hyperspace cores coudl generate exotic energy in place of a solidified mass? But even then, it would be instantaneous. Hrmm. Can we assume that there are a few rules of the universe these future humans have figured out that we haven't? To our knowledge, it is not possible. So where is this line that says "don't theorize beyond here, this is where the fi in sci-fi takes over"?


Inert	#63 Posted on 20-09-2005 06:31
Posts: 388 Joined: September 08 2005	Since we can't reach a positive conclusion on this, I'll kind of store it and bring this new topic up. Hypothetically, if hyperspace is your every-day-quantum-probability-drive then I'm assuming hyperspace inhibitor field is not based on gravity, but around gravity? Perhaps gravity is a detector for hyperspace anomaly, among with other things, and in this prospect the ship would be then observed? Then safety overrides would realize it's been detected, and if it's moving at realistic speeds... maybe something would kind of implode in the process?


Glacialis	#64 Posted on 20-09-2005 12:13
Posts: 368 Joined: September 02 2005	Well, it can't be a quantum probability drive because that would imply instantaneous travel.


Inert	#65 Posted on 20-09-2005 14:58
Posts: 388 Joined: September 08 2005	What if hyperspace was not one full spike rearrangement but a long series of short jumps at relativistic speeds? The delay would be caused by traveling at relativistic speeds.


Glacialis	#66 Posted on 20-09-2005 15:46
Posts: 368 Joined: September 02 2005	Then ships would be subject to interception or at least tracked in realspace, without an inhibitor.


Inert	#67 Posted on 20-09-2005 23:39
Posts: 388 Joined: September 08 2005	I think that by the time you could track it, it would already have left that position, as you are most likely tracking it with something less then or equal to the speed of light, but moving at relavistic speed means you move faster then light.


Cobalt Shiva	#68 Posted on 22-09-2005 10:19
Posts: 118 Joined: September 07 2005	Relativistic speeds generally means very close to the speed of light, but not exceeding it. I have a mathematically valid FTL drive idea. The particular Einsteinian equation that forbids travel AT lightspeed produces a 0 in the denominator when lightspeed is plugged in for 'velocity.' This, of course, makes the whole thing undefined - 'divide by zero error.' If one added an IMAGINARY component to the velocity - a square root of negative one - then the equation changes dramatically! To make a long story short - adding an imaginary component to one's velocity would allow a ship to rotate around the lightspeed singularity in complex space. I don't think it'll help us, unfortunately, but it is edifying. "This is tactical control..."


Glacialis	#69 Posted on 22-09-2005 13:29
Posts: 368 Joined: September 02 2005	Let's try to find one theory that exists today, and say that it holds true for the Homeworld universe. Remember what happens at the end of HW2, for reference. We're not going to be able to make this work on existing, proven science.


TelQuessir	#70 Posted on 23-09-2005 03:26
Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005	Heh, hyperspace gate network somewhat reminds me of similar things in other sci-fi universes, including Stargate. Hmm, for FTL comms in the PDSverse I would require the ability to send radio signals through a wormhole.


Inert	#71 Posted on 23-09-2005 03:41
Posts: 388 Joined: September 08 2005	I think you could yell into a wormhole and expect to be able to hear it on the other side.


Glacialis	#72 Posted on 23-09-2005 03:53
Posts: 368 Joined: September 02 2005	Actually, that's true enough assuming the wormhole's big enough for air molecules to travel through . Will work on FTL comms...it's what my brain does while idling between calls at work. 1 week left of my contract...argh.


TelQuessir	#73 Posted on 23-09-2005 04:44
Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005	As it stands I can't really imagine FTL except for the Stargate way which I quoted. Yasotay's system in his fiction may be different - uses grav pulses to send something? Alternatively simply hyperspace a capsule with the message (with relevant anti-tamper devices) to the recipient - pod confirms recipient's identity then transmits - sort of a message drone.


Glacialis	#74 Posted on 23-09-2005 13:23
Posts: 368 Joined: September 02 2005	I could definitely see message drones, but that begs the question: do they have hyperdrives themselves? If so, that's a mighty expensive postage stamp! They would not be used frequently.


yasotay	#75 Posted on 23-09-2005 15:09
Posts: 637 Joined: September 09 2005	Actually the 'FTL bouy' is in fact an exceedingly expensive probe sized drone vessel that has a one shot hyperspace capability. Very crude actually. You record your message and send it on its way once it gets to its destination it transmits the message. Because of their expense they are used very sparingly Indeed there is a whole industry that has built up around the FTL bouy, not only for the HGN, but for larger commercial interest as well. There are usually predetermined 'Bouy Points' within each of the solar systems with enough traffic and technology to warrant one. There is usually a station (sometimes automated) that receieves the data transmition and channels it to the appropriate location. The spent Bouy is then collected and sent for referbishment on the Bouy Tender or dirt side. Within the HGN 'Bouy Duty' is about as low as you can get in prestigious assignments. "Bouy Captains' are not likely to find themselves commanding a Cruiser, let alone a frigate. There how is that for fluff Not of stitch of real science involved. Now back to your regularly scheduled physics discussion.


Cobalt Shiva	#76 Posted on 23-09-2005 16:50
Posts: 118 Joined: September 07 2005	Gravity-based FTL comms are out if we plan to stick to relatively real science. There's no way to move information faster than light using EM, gravity, or anything else - at least not in the confines of normal space-time. Even quantum entanglement is...iffy. Tel's wormhole comms are entirely practical, on the other hand. We know the HWverse has micro-wormhole capability (for the transfer of RUs, right?) - no reason messages couldn't be transmitted through one of those wormholes. "This is tactical control..."


Glacialis	#77 Posted on 23-09-2005 20:42
Posts: 368 Joined: September 02 2005	Well, gravity could work but the problem is that gravity waves (correct me on this) fade over distance. I say it could work only because of Weber's Honorverse not due to any real science I've read. The way they get grav pulse comms to work is by having gravity be faster than light. Let's say you can sense the gravity of a planet halfway across the solar system. What would happen if that planet disappears? Would your gravitic sensors show this a few minutes later, or instantaneously? That's the crux of their science. Workable or not in real life, who knows? We don't know all that much about gravity waves, right? I do think FTL buoys are going to be the best bet for FTL comms. Remember how in HW1/2 you could sneak into places further into enemy territory than should have been possible had they been alerted via "FTL radio"? Figure they didn't send a buoy straight to the place you were going.


Inert	#78 Posted on 23-09-2005 23:18
Posts: 388 Joined: September 08 2005	FTL resource transfer can be adapted to FTL communications. Sound is basically the vibration of atoms if I recall correctly, and obviously atoms can fit through a wormhole. (going on a limb here:) I think due to the extreme energenic bombardment inside the wormhole, atomic bonds are broken and thus they split into singular atoms. However as long as they are there... then they should still vibrate. I'm sure it's a bit complicated then that... perhaps a bit of distortion going on? But outside that I don't think it would be at all incredulous... it'd rather be convient actually. Edited by Inert on 24-09-2005 04:21


JustinWick	#79 Posted on 24-09-2005 03:31
Posts: 18 Joined: September 24 2005	Sound is basically the vibration of atoms if I recall correctly, and obviously atoms can fit through a wormhole. (going on a limb here I think due to the extreme energenic bombardment inside the wormhole, atomic bonds are broken and thus they split into singular atoms. However as long as they are there... then they should still vibrate. I'm sure it's a bit complicated then that... perhaps a bit of distortion going on? If you wish to communicate through a wormhole and the bonds are broken but the TYPES of atoms remain unchanged, then I would suggest the a coding scheme whereby the instantaneous ratios of elements being passed through the wormhole IS the signal. A trivial type of this would be, say, passing hydrogen and helium through, altering the ratios of the flow rapidly (using some kind of nuclear spectrograph or somesuch on the other side to decode the message). As one introduces more types of elements, the available combinations of population ratios (for a given sensitivity to relative populations) goes up as the square of the number of elements involved (actually it's n(n-1)/2 if I remember correctly, same as the "handshaking problem"). As you can see this would be a simple but effective way to do communications, assuming that electromagnetic waves did not pass through, and velocity distributions were somehow affected. FYI, single atoms do not "vibrate" in the same way that we would think of as being sound. Molecules themselves can vibrate but at extremely high frequencies... etc. Well, gravity could work but the problem is that gravity waves (correct me on this) fade over distance. I say it could work only because of Weber's Honorverse not due to any real science I've read. The way they get grav pulse comms to work is by having gravity be faster than light. Let's say you can sense the gravity of a planet halfway across the solar system. What would happen if that planet disappears? Would your gravitic sensors show this a few minutes later, or instantaneously? That's the crux of their science. Weber really did a number on Physics in his universe. We've effectively measured the speed of gravity in real life (using the moons of Jupiter), and, unsurprisingly, it is the same as the speed of light. This makes sense, as gravitons are expected to be massless, and massless particles MUST* go the speed of light in all reference frames. Of course since this is all make-believe anyways, and we have FTL, one could say we could send gravity waves through a hyperspace portal. The problem with gravity waves is not that they fade over time (indeed collumated gravity waves could travel accross the entire galaxy without losing an appreciable amount of energy, as they interact weakly with matter) but that gravity waves themselves interact so weekly with detectors, etc, that they are really difficult to detect. I have some friends who worked on LIGO (the Laser Interferometric Gravitational Observatory) and it is a massive challenge because they are more likely to detect nearby (cosmicaly speaking) objects moving, such as logging operations, etc, than far away massive objects, such as black holes. Just FYI the theory of gravitational waves (according to general relativity, not quantum physics) is very well developed and AFAIK most of it is considered cannon in modern physics. Of course, there is margin for error, especially considering there's no complete theory of quantum gravity. =================================== Who would sup with the mighty must climb the path of daggers.


JustinWick	#80 Posted on 24-09-2005 03:34
Posts: 18 Joined: September 24 2005	Gravity-based FTL comms are out if we plan to stick to relatively real science. There's no way to move information faster than light using EM, gravity, or anything else - at least not in the confines of normal space-time. Even quantum entanglement is...iffy. That's right, CS. AFAIK quantum entanglement cannot be used to send a causality-violating message (FTL). The only area where this is even in any doubt has to do with adiabatic preturbations, and that is complex and unlikely to pan out. Gravity waves could be sent through a wormhole, however, I suppose. Tel's wormhole comms are entirely practical, on the other hand. We know the HWverse has micro-wormhole capability (for the transfer of RUs, right?) - no reason messages couldn't be transmitted through one of those wormholes. Matter itself is essentially information. The transfer of RUs constitutes a classical causal message. There's no reason to think that there isn't some way to use this for FTL comm - indeed the message "I am giving y ou this RU" is already being transmitted. I support your idea, CS. =================================== Who would sup with the mighty must climb the path of daggers.

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