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 Conclusion to "defense field" technology - by Glacialis
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| myrddin |
Posted on 15-09-2005 06:49
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 Posts: 16 Joined: September 06 2005 |
If anybody cares / If you want to know what I mean when I say things, here's my dimensions explanation. Okay, for the non-quantum-physicists, and people who haven't followed M-theory (most of the population), supersymmetry tends to indicate that our universe has 11 dimensions. We have gotten used to thinking about three and time, and Einstein combined them into spacetime, but 11D has (as I've gotten it, and there are contentions) 9 spacelike, one timelike, and one fundamental dimension. The visualization is a problem. We can't see or interact in more than three and time. But the modeling math works better with 11. Side effect of unification research. The visualization common for the nine spacial (and I'm borrowing and amalgamating shamelessly here) is that the "other six", what I referred to as d4-d9, are "rolled up" on each point of spacetime. Think three-dimensional coordinate system. Every three-space point has access to 26 adjacent three-space points. They correspond to the outside of a 3x3x3 cube. A hypercube, 3x3x3x3, extends into the fourth spacial dimension, and I can't see it to count the points, but imagine that every point in space has as many adjacent points as the face cubes of a 3x3x3x3x3x3x3x3x3 ubercube. (this is, by the way, exactly how I justify bags of holding in AD&D - bigger on the inside because nature is perverse) Time can't reasonably be considered a spacelike dimension because we can't understand it as flowing in any way but forward along the causal chain. I'd think of it as 10, if I numbered it, but mostly t (which should be tau). Everything is assumed to naturally travel +t whether it likes it or not.  As yet, nobody quite knows how to meaningfully interact with any non-LWD space dimensions, but that's what science fiction is for. |
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| myrddin |
Posted on 15-09-2005 06:54
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Posts: 16 Joined: September 06 2005 |
(in otherwords, I recommend that you ignore time. It just makes everything messy.) (also, we can't meaningfully simulate any non-threespace interactions, so 11D space has no real in-game application, or much excuse value, but it's what I see quantum physics in.) Must sleep! |
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| Glacialis |
Posted on 15-09-2005 12:14
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 Posts: 368 Joined: September 02 2005 |
myrddin: Thank you for all of the information . One thing I must ask: is it possible that, in transiting to other aspects of this reality (ya know, 4th+ dimensions), damage could be sustained? I didn't of course detail the hows, but I had envisioned that any displaced matter -- a small amount, remember...bullets/kinetic rounds and enough of a missile's mass to make it ineffective -- would have its molecular bonds fried. In essence, you have a cloud of constituent atoms. Dimensional travel (not alternate dimensions, but higher dimensions in our own universe)...I wonder if the main job of the hyperdrive is not to move you into "hyperspace" (whatever we define it as), but to move you there SAFELY? If an inhibitor field just disrupts the "safely" portion...*ponder* Mebbe you need the hcore to keep your molecular bonds intact. Wow, wouldn't that make your hyperdrive technicians the most carefully watched people on the ship? "But it was just one drink, officer!" In addition Tel, personally I think we should try to keep as much of the Homeworld universe fluff as we can -- so long as it makes sense. I'm all for explaining things in a way that makes sense, and perhaps correcting terminology that is otherwise meaningless...but let's try to keep the flavor of the universe. Fluff is critical for that, and I daresay we've expanded that universe far more than we've just plain altered it. Still, the nagging worry remains. Edited by Glacialis on 15-09-2005 12:20 |
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| Inert |
Posted on 15-09-2005 15:28
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 Posts: 388 Joined: September 08 2005 |
Myrddin your 3x3x3x3... cube got me thinking. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/sykokhev/hyperspace.jpg Take a look at that figure. In normal 3d space, the box's dimensions are 3x3x3. But perhaps in 4d, a third side (which goes through) the box (from one point to the farthest opposite point), and that side would also be 3. Mathematically that is incorrect, as to find that you'd need to do... 3? + 3? = sqrt(18). sqrt(18)? + 3? = 3(sqrt(3)). But you see the 4d line is somewhat shorter then the 3d line. Not sure if this really makes sense, I'm kind of eating breakfast and getting ready for school |
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| Cobalt Shiva |
Posted on 15-09-2005 17:04
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 Posts: 118 Joined: September 07 2005 |
Myrddin - as a fellow quantum enthusiast - Are you suggesting that hyperdrives somehow 'nonlocalize' an object's probability waveform? That is - if a typical object's 'probability graph' is flat everywhere except for a single spike at the object's location, a hyperdrive could somehow put new peaks into the waveform - move the 'spike' to a different location? Essentially - the transiting object would go from being 'coherent', with a single 100% spike on an otherwise flat probability graph, that being the object's actual location - to 'decoherent', nonlocalized, in a state of quantum fuzziness - and then back to full coherency, only with the spike - the object's location -somewhere else? I don't know any possible mechanic, but I'm sure the HW universe's understanding of quantum theory is as far beyond ours as we are beyond 18th century science. Damage during hyperspace transit could result from an object being only partially delocalized. Sound good? Edited by Cobalt Shiva on 15-09-2005 17:05 "This is tactical control..."
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| Freezyguy |
Posted on 16-09-2005 01:05
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 Posts: 17 Joined: September 04 2005 |
Quote TelQuessir wrote: "PDS requires RL backgrounding in what we're dealing with and not techno or typical game discussion babble. Right now the scientific aspect of things is being optimised." This is what I was aimming to say. I am sorry for offending you in any way. Therefore, to gain a hundred victories in a hundred battles is not the highest excellence; to subjugate the enemy's army without doing battle is the highest of excellence. -Sun-Tzu
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 16-09-2005 04:15
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 Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Then I say "ouch!" - your post didn't exactly sound very friendly! |
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| myrddin |
Posted on 17-09-2005 04:52
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Posts: 16 Joined: September 06 2005 |
Quote Cobalt Shiva wrote: Myrddin - as a fellow quantum enthusiast - Are you suggesting that hyperdrives somehow 'nonlocalize' an object's probability waveform? That is - if a typical object's 'probability graph' is flat everywhere except for a single spike at the object's location, a hyperdrive could somehow put new peaks into the waveform - move the 'spike' to a different location? Essentially - the transiting object would go from being 'coherent', with a single 100% spike on an otherwise flat probability graph, that being the object's actual location - to 'decoherent', nonlocalized, in a state of quantum fuzziness - and then back to full coherency, only with the spike - the object's location -somewhere else? I don't know any possible mechanic, but I'm sure the HW universe's understanding of quantum theory is as far beyond ours as we are beyond 18th century science. Damage during hyperspace transit could result from an object being only partially delocalized. Sound good? First, nice. That had been poking me ever since I woke up. Let's work it in.Second, kind of. Here goes. What I understand for quantum twining involves the delocalization, as you said, of a waveform. More to the point, the flexible localization of a waveform. It's the electron cloud concept, expanded. For thing x, and places A through Z, there is a probability of it being in places [C, Q], with a given probability for each locale, but its aggregate probability can be said to exist delocalized over [C, Q]. So no unobserved object's probability graph spikes in one location until observed, thank you Erwin's Cat. You can twine to the other side of a wall because the universe wasn't sure you weren't already there. You just shouldn't be able to do it while people are watching you. Therein lies my biggest obstacle: the observer effect, and the prevalence of sensor envelopes. This, I'm sort of trying to justify with how hyperspace actually works in-game, where we can say we're here now, and there now+1. The existing fluff seems to indicate that there is no formulaic secret to hyperspacing; it requires a Core for far-leaping. I'm offloading the hard math, so to speak, on the Core (or limited copy thereof, for defense field generating/fire redirection). The software guys would say "That's handled in hardware." Even the limited copies of the Core hardware or subsections are blueprint redesign, not principle redesign. The assumption I'm making winds up like this (in progress): For every object (or group of objects, such as a ship), there exists a set of quantum probabilities that represent to the universe the likely existence of that object. [That's a really clumsy way to put it, but I have trouble phrasing the universe-as-backing-store] These probabilities can be measured -- the observer effect -- which will determine precisely the existence of the object, locking down the waveform into a fixed reality. This would otherwise have the effect of negating our ability to quantum 'fuzzy' the object anywhere, but it does make that unified spike in the probability graph. We, and the universe, so to speak, now know without doubt what the object is, to a very strong probability. Hold this thought. The engine (at least in 2) doesn't let us hyperspace into occupied space, i.e. on top of another ship, though it will put us darned close. The quantum foam representation of empty space is full of probabilities that aren't close enough to realization to actually exist. I mentioned lossless conversion before, and this is kind of what I'm shooting for: the Core takes our spike, locates a space with randomized quantum probabilities, and imposes our much stronger probability on them. I'm not sure that that isn't entirely the wrong perspective, but I think of it more as a relocalization, convincing the universe that we're there now. Everything else will notice that the space we were in no longer has us in it. I've been using the targeting computer as an observer for outside objects; I don't know whether an object can observe itself, ala Descartes, but the cheater's way out may simply be to say that we observe ourself to exist in the new space. Or we observe the new space to be around us. Any way, the observer effect seems to me to be the simplest way to get the fait accompli. I don't have a good mechanic for doing this, either. But as I'm trying to explain magic which comes with its own fully functional thingamagig, the thingamagig gets stuck making the explanation plausible; if I find a good enough role for the thingamagig, I can say that it does similar things in other instances, like transiting enemy projectiles.  Glacialis, too: I don't have a built-in excuse for hyperspace causing damage. Everytime a ship transits, it comes out essentially the way it went in, in-game. But for Defense Field systems, we need to do something with them, and I'm not real satisfied with just shoving them off the map somewhere. The stuff above, I didn't have solid before I worked it out there, and it may give us that effect. I said I'd theorized the Hyperspace Core imposing a high-level probability on low-probability space; if this is a targeted effect, the targeting computer must know the projectile as a high-level probability, but instead, we just want low-probability space there. Ostrich defense doesn't work as the corrolary of observer-determined reality; if you don't look at it, it really will still hit you. Ow. Rephrase. Can we say that the Core aggregates the probabilistic states of two or more locales, one of which contains the defined object, and outputs some desired combination? Then we can aggregate us and blank space for us in that blank space, and a shell and many blank random samples (maybe from the entire periphery of the Defense Field) to output static from projectile mass? It would be a targeted effect, which explains why ships can go through, and the aggregate nature puts doing it to any large vessel beyond the capacity of the system; that's a lot of *something* to average out. There's obviously a computational limitation involved, so the system won't be perfect; you all know the volume of fire that results from even a fighter dogfight. How does that sound? As always, tell me if I'm just not making sense. It can be fixed. Myrddin. |
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| myrddin |
Posted on 17-09-2005 05:05
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Posts: 16 Joined: September 06 2005 |
I've noticed that once I issue a hyperspace command, and the jump starts, the ship stops responding to anything. We could get around localization by having the Core only grab the quantum state of the object being hyperspaced; if the ship preps for jump by closing local sensors and letting the Hyperspace Core 'describe' the point in space that the ship will occupy? The ship in transit is obviously non-interactive, and our observer is now the Hyperspace Core itself. The research options canonically put hyperspacing as a mothership option. Are we all just talking to Karan Sjet or Makaan and they're telling us where *the* Core tells us we are now? Tell me if that jives with what you know, and what the problems are; one good thing is that it links into the main line of HW2 fluff. Myrddin. |
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| Inert |
Posted on 17-09-2005 07:07
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Posts: 388 Joined: September 08 2005 |
Just to clarify the probability waves and observer's effect, say that a locker slams shut in an empty hall way. If I interpreted correctly, then by your explanation the sound (which no one can hear) has a probability of not having been made at all since no one was at the present location at the right time? |
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| myrddin |
Posted on 17-09-2005 13:27
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Posts: 16 Joined: September 06 2005 |
Quote Inert wrote: Just to clarify the probability waves and observer's effect, say that a locker slams shut in an empty hall way. If I interpreted correctly, then by your explanation the sound (which no one can hear) has a probability of not having been made at all since no one was at the present location at the right time? No; more like any of a number of lockers could have slammed shut to make that sound; all an indirect observer would be able to tell would be the energy state, and not which locker. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertai..._principle In this case, the particle in a box, so to speak, is the locker in an unoccupied hallway. Its position is indeterminate, in that we know which hallway, perhaps, but not which of a number of lockers precisely without entering the 'box'. It may not be the best example for quantum uncertaintly, because we could be in the hallway, and know both the position and that the locker slammed shut. Macro gets difficult that way. |
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| Cobalt Shiva |
Posted on 17-09-2005 21:15
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Posts: 118 Joined: September 07 2005 |
OK, for all the uninitiated (and to make sure I've got this right, Myrddin)- Myrrdin has advanced what shall be referred to as the Quantum Probability Hyperdrive hypothesis. In this hypothesis, hyperdrives do NOT utilize another dimension of space. Instead, the hyperdrive utilizes probability. Any given collection of objects, when observed (essentially, when it interacts with any other matter, such as being struck by photons of light), has a 100% probability of existing at its own location. This can be represented as a spike on an otherwise flat graph of all of space. To make a long story short, the hyperdrive can manipulate this probability. How? It's not as fantastic as it sounds. Hyperdrives are based on a very sophisticated understanding of quantum entanglement. If an object with a 100% spike on its probability graph is 'local', the hyperdrive can 'delocalize' it - flattening and widening the spike, then reforming the peak in a new area until the spike's back to 100%, only in a different place. When a hyperdrive operates, it manipulates the fundamental geometry of spacetime (the mechanic is beyond current mathematics, but is easily understood in HW-level math.) Two distinct areas of spacetime are essentially entangled, or 'twined': the probability state of one area is swapped with the probability state of another, for a net energy gain of zero- conservation of energy is observed. There's no ACTUAL movement of 'spacetime areas'; information about the state of one area is simply imposed on the area. The 'probability spike' of an object is moved; the universe is fooled into believing the object is somewhere else. There is no physical 'matter stream' that moves between the two locations. There are no wormholes, per se. Hyperdrives require a large amount of energy to twine two areas of space, but the amount of energy is not determined by distance per se - after all, interstellar hyperspace jumps are 'free,' whereas tactical jumps (which require much more precision) are costly. Hyperdrives, in short, aren't so much ENGINES as communications devices, telling spacetime how it should be. The end result is for the hyperspacing object to seem to move from one area to another. Everyone agree? One snag: there are many cutscenes that take place during hyperspace. Edited by Cobalt Shiva on 17-09-2005 21:19 "This is tactical control..."
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| maw3194 |
Posted on 17-09-2005 22:00
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Posts: 66 Joined: September 02 2005 |
Perhaps they leave Hyperspace to do maintainance on the Ships, write reports, and take scans of the region ahead so they don't exit hyperspace in an area that is too dangerous. These may be because of safety features, after all, you don't want the hyperspace core malfunctioning mid transit. So in essence, you aren't making a Long jump, merely long-er jumps and scanning the region ahead. Edited by maw3194 on 17-09-2005 22:01 |
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| Inert |
Posted on 17-09-2005 22:31
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Posts: 388 Joined: September 08 2005 |
No they are still in-transit while writing reports and doing other things. Question: is this process instantaneous then? Edited by Inert on 17-09-2005 22:31 |
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| myrddin |
Posted on 19-09-2005 16:41
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Posts: 16 Joined: September 06 2005 |
Cobalt Shiva has named it nicely. Good long story shortening. If it works that way, then the process would entail no "in-hyperspace" anything, since there is no "in-hyperspace" space. This is one of the obvious flaws. We could pop in and out of the battlespace at will, but with no setup time in transit. Kind of like MP skirmish, less like original campaign, not really like cutscenes. From a scientific perspective, maybe I'm wrong. That being, maybe hyperspacing could work that way, it seems plausible, but the test of any model is how it matches reality. The game universe has examples that the Quantum Probability Hyperdrive hypothesis doesn't explain. This means we either rationalize the problems, or correct the hypothesis around them; gripping hand, we might have to discard QPH as an operational reality as regards original Homeworld hyperspace technology. If you can throw as many "This doesn't work out because" examples here as possible, we can see what has to be done. PDS is obviously different in many ways from HW2, but we're working on the premise of evolution, not revisionism. --- On that line, a further question: The more I think about this, the more I seem to be implying things that do break descriptive-only restrictions. Much of the whole Quantum Probability Hyperdrive thing prescribes behavior instead of describing it, if I try to keep more faithful to quantum physics than HW game fluff. If this doesn't mate up well, maybe this is a technological breakthrough like the weapons work that has been done, in terms of mobility as tactical advantage, to be applied to select ships/groups (a la "4G" and "5G" technology), and Hyperspace Cores return to Sufficiently Advanced Technology status (i.e. indistinguishable from magic)? Thoughts? |
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| myrddin |
Posted on 19-09-2005 16:55
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Posts: 16 Joined: September 06 2005 |
Quote Inert wrote: Question: is this process instantaneous then? I think it has to be, if the Quantum Probability Hyperdrive is what we're using. Only vaguely related, does anybody remember the Infinite Improbability Drive? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite...lity_Drive Anybody have a cup of really hot tea? |
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| Glacialis |
Posted on 19-09-2005 20:12
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Posts: 368 Joined: September 02 2005 |
It's not instantaneous as presented in the game universe, and not in the game itself. Is there an explanation that could make it not-instantaneous and still use this theory? |
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| Cobalt Shiva |
Posted on 19-09-2005 23:08
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Posts: 118 Joined: September 07 2005 |
No. Also, the many references to 'emergency interrupts' pulling ships out of hyperspace halfway through transits invalidates this theory. Blast. I really liked the elegance of it, too. Sorry, Myrddin. Recommendations: The Quantum Probability Hyperdrive is experimental tech. It might not ever show up in game. Hyperdrive systems use wormhole technology - shortcuts through space and time, back alleys through the universe. Hyperdrives select one of the tiny wormholes constantly seething in the universe's background foam, and 'inflate' it to macroscopic size, large enough for a ship to transit through. [This is represented as a blue window in common tactical programs, but it doesn't actually look like that.] The wormhole is inflated and maintained with a 'quantum waveform' - effectively a scaffold holding the wormhole mouth open. The ship rides this waveform down the wormhole. The ship travels through the wormhole to the destination point, which requires time - this interval of time is NOT linearly related to the distance traveled. Strategic hyperspace cores are very energy efficient but not particularly accurate. Because of their configuration, they can only generate wormholes of 1+ lightyear. They have a maximum range. Tactical hyperspace cores are energy-hungry (i.e. they require r.u.) but very precise. They can generate wormholes of less than one lightyear. Long-jump cores are very energy efficient and very precise. They are extremely valuable assets. If the wormhole the ship is transiting through is 'disturbed' by an outside gravitational force, the quantum waveform the ship rides on may collapse. This can result in severe damage due to gravitational stress. To prevent this, onboard safeties attempt a controlled transition back to realspace if hazardous conditions are present. Satisfied, everyone? We have a quantum slipstream, we have inhibitors, we have emergency interrupts, and we have time-in-transit. I still like Myrrdin's theory better, but we'll work with what we've got. "This is tactical control..."
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| Inert |
Posted on 19-09-2005 23:37
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Posts: 388 Joined: September 08 2005 |
Wormhole idea won't float. It's impossible for them to create a wormhole bigger then your fist, and you'd come out in a stream of atoms. If you want I can show you a link to the canon piece. However, this probability hyperdrive system is still discussable. As far as I know, only the mothership is operational during hyperspace. The mothership is also the only one with a far jumper. Everything in skirmish battles uses a secondary core. It is also not instananeous, as it does take about half a minute for them to reappear out of hyperspace. Perhaps this is due to lesser workings of a short jumper not being able to charge the core with sufficient energy in the alotted time. So it charges it in short bursts, leading to a sense of "delay" in observers since it is moving at such relativistic speeds? For far jumpers... they are moving at a slower speed but still faster then light, and thus it takes some weeks between jumps but to them it's only a couple of hours? Since they are about 1,000,000 tons of metal, they take more "breaks" then smaller ships. Edited by Inert on 19-09-2005 23:40 |
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| myrddin |
Posted on 20-09-2005 00:58
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Posts: 16 Joined: September 06 2005 |
I do firmly believe that if it disagrees with experimental or experiential proofs, it's a bad model. QPH seems to be a bad model for the preexisting hyperdrive in the Homeworld universe. Sorry, Tel, I have to admit it. Quote Inert wrote: Wormhole idea won't float. It's impossible for them to create a wormhole bigger then your fist, and you'd come out in a stream of atoms. If you want I can show you a link to the canon piece. I'm obliged to agree with Inert here. Einstein-Rosen bridges need exotic matter, among other problems. Any wormhole presents two-way travel possibilities, like the Vaygr Hyperspace Gate idea permits, but the generally-used in-game hyperspace jumps are non-reversable, and non-permanent. CS, I have to poke at it. You might note that classical wormholes, while having a sort of 'elsewhere' component, aren't interruptible. Any wormhole is a passage from one point to another point through a defined spacetime warping (however created). Wormhole passage is exactly like normalspace passage, only shorter due to curvature issues being bypassed. Wormholes are topological shortcuts. Classically, if we can create one, a gravity field from outside is the least of our problems, being a much weaker warping of space than the one we create for the wormhole. Time proceeds linear to space, although the time-distance dilation effects can be a pain, even assuming we don't tunnel timewise as well as spacewise. Collapse has what you might call a singular result on objects inside, and it isn't to dump them out safely. Wormholes collapse of their own volition without something weird to hold them open (exotic matter, for example, or whatever we'll say the Hyperspace Core does).Using the quantum foam is a nice means of achieving disposability, so we don't have wormhole mouths littering the battlespace. It has problems of its own, however. I'll give you the magical thingamagig holding it open. The thing is, gravity doesn't interact much at all at the quantum level. Gravity well disturbance like you describe shouldn't be a factor because we're not in relativistic space. Also, quantum foam wormholes don't tend to go very far, unless you're thinking in Planck lengths. How do you plan on moving/placing the endpoint of your suddenly big, but ultimately momentary and infinitesimal, tube? |
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