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 Drones -> are the reliable and safe?
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| RayLancer |
Posted on 23-01-2006 05:14
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 Posts: 2 Joined: January 22 2006 |
I hope the mod wont replace humans with AI as the pilots of fighters. Battles brings stories and heroes. You make heroes out of humans, not AI. How would people feel about a war being fought by AI? Well maybe I seen too many war movies, or read about wars, or stuff but, victories won have been a great morale booster for people fighting in wars. AI drones would save a lot of human lives but, like any piece of technology, there are sometimes compilcations. I'm not really much of a tech person or posess a lot of military knowledge, but hopefully someone will understand what I'm saying. AI drones would make a great addition to bolster numbers in a fleet. I dont think they should replace the human factor as pilots. Humans can think, assess, judge, and react to arising situations better than AIs can. Well, I think teh AI drones should be used as additional forces to form offensive/defensive squads. Frigates or Capital Ships can carry and deploy AI frigates to protect themselves while the other human pilots can engage the enemy or try to accompolish tasks. Well sorry of my thing is unclear or vague. But the point is, I dont think that fighters should be primarily drones. |
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| Sun Tzu |
Posted on 23-01-2006 07:44
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 Posts: 528 Joined: September 08 2005 |
@Inert: There's a "switch owner" function that enables to script a change the control over any ship. As regards drones, if taking control is considered a reasonable and realistic option, it would be possible to simulate that by a script within the game rules verifying whether a drone is within a given distance of a ECM-capable ship during a given time to trigger a change of control. Since keeping track of single squadrons over a period of time is a pain in the back to script, there could be an alternative of running a random "taking control" function against all drones within ECM range every x seconds with a low percentage of success. I trust that quick and dirty way would be statistically roughly equivalent to a 'clean' function. I don't know if that's worth the effort; as said above in this thread, if taking control of enemy drones is conceivable, an autodestruction device is very likely to prevent that. Edit: and regarding the issue of whether humans will remain superior to AI as a fighter pilots, you guys are just dreaming; your sons will be alive when fighters will become controlled by AI 
Edited by Sun Tzu on 23-01-2006 07:49 |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 23-01-2006 08:49
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 Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
The ship subversion is better off employed as a plot mechanic for scenarios and campaign instead of the manner described here. Until someone successfully subverts a Predator drone by "hijacking" its datalink I would have difficulty comprehending the possibility. Now, distrupting the datalink between drone and control station would be a viable tactic to deny the enemy successful deployment of the drones, but I would believe that there would be some sort of independent operating capability on the drone's guidance system to prevent the platform from being lost. |
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| Itharu |
Posted on 23-01-2006 17:19
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 Posts: 363 Joined: September 23 2005 |
Quote TelQuessir wrote: Now, distrupting the datalink between drone and control station would be a viable tactic to deny the enemy successful deployment of the drones, but I would believe that there would be some sort of independent operating capability on the drone's guidance system to prevent the platform from being lost. Kinda the point I was hoping to make earlier. I figure you should treat the drones in the mannor of 'fire and forget', give them orders, leave them be. If they require AI to AI communication, then have them do it via 'hand signals', limit the methods of direct data imput, keeping the enemy guessing as to how they communicate. Hell, even signal flare patterns could completely throw off the enemy. I don't think an AI would mistake what signals from what ship in that fashion. I'm taking it as if you don't want the enemy to make a problem, don't leave him room to do so. -Fear the Might of the Imperial Cortharian Fleet
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| Inert |
Posted on 23-01-2006 23:20
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 Posts: 388 Joined: September 08 2005 |
Think back to WWI and the trench situations. There have been thousands of losses for mere yards of land gain. Fighters are just like foot soldiers, in where they are used to suppress the enemy, maybe even overcome them, but ultimately pave the way for larger and more powerful ships to enter the fray and do their duty. Now think about it, spending years of training and thousands [of dollars] to prepare troops to do nothing but shoot at other troops that have gone through the same thing. Why not replace these troops with machines that do the job for us? Then we can train the troops for something useful, instead of merely knowing how to pilot. Try to think about practibility, and not about "war heroes". And we are not replacing humans with AI. Drones as suppression units work well because that they are mass producable and instantly ready [no training]. If you pay attention to the way fighters move, you'll see that they are very much like suicide runs. So drones replace any risk at place. |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 23-01-2006 23:51
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Manned fighters in NGCS-E would be larger hulls armed predominantly with missiles. Of course we have manned versions of the Alencon too (as a light interceptor) but the losses they would take against lasers, interceptor missiles and CIWS would be horrendous. Hence, as aforementioned, the preference for drones. |
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| Altima |
Posted on 05-04-2006 00:05
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 Posts: 25 Joined: November 14 2005 |
But this isn't trench warfare, heck there aren't even any battle lines, so to speak. There's just planets factions control, and that's that. Not even the space in-system is safe when someone could arbitrarily hyper in and launch and attack before anyone could react. As for drones? I think they're great. Within reason. Defensively, they can provide a population center with enough tactical support to defend themselves. Drones, once in space, require no logistical support, so they could, theoretically, patrol entire systems (assuming their reactors hold out). As for human ingenuity versus AI logic...why not link human minds to the drones when its available? Shipyards, I imagine, would have enough resources to allow for this. Thus you have all the physical limitations of the human body removed with AI reflexes. And, of course, drones don't really have any tactical finesse, I think. Covert operations spring to mind. Though, lastly, there is the moral and ethical delimma behind drones. Wars are fought by people. Period. Their valor and courage are what inspire people. Their desire to defend their own people. Saving lives by employing fighters and other death traps as simple hardware is fine, but when wars cease to become more of button-pushing battles and less of the human element, war becomes (more) meaningless. "It's the unconquerable soul of man, and not the nature of the weapon he uses, that insures victory." "The soldier is the army." ?Wars may be fought with weapons, but they are won by men. It is the spirit of the men who follow and of the man who leads that gains the victory.? "? many, who should know better, think that wars can be decided by soulless machines, rather than by the blood and anguish of brave men." |
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| Glacialis |
Posted on 10-04-2006 15:09
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 Posts: 368 Joined: September 02 2005 |
If your drones are out preventing the enemy drones and other craft from getting to you, hey're doing their job. If enemy drones break through your line and start coming for your manned vessels, are you going to give a single god damn if they have pilots in them and shoot them down, or are you going to stand indignant at the "dishonorable" tactics of the enemy? The Vagyr have razed entire planets. Hiigara and the Vagyr Loyalists, and soon enough the resurgent Taaidani, are locked in a struggle to the death. It may simmer down later, but that's not the case now. If you think an advantage, any advantage, is going to be overlooked then you're sadly mistaken. When survival is on the line, anything goes. Would Hiigara nuke a planet from orbit? If they had to. I don't think they've had to but if they did, they'd surely feel pretty awful about it...as would most Vagyr. Would they feel any their morals twisting at the thought of "soulless machines" dying by the dozens to prevent the loss of sentient life? Mmm. Don't think so. |
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| Ace22 |
Posted on 12-04-2006 03:22
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Posts: 4 Joined: March 24 2006 |
Only if they're not sentient.
Mind like water...
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 12-04-2006 05:01
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
While we in the AS universe have pretty good AI technology that allows one commander to operate a flight of advanced destroyers by himself (more is possible if you can multitask well), they are still 1 and 0 entities. Far from being sentient, though can be programmed to emulate human actions like I exhibited in Thorin's RP thread. |
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| Nerdfish |
Posted on 12-04-2006 07:24
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 Posts: 30 Joined: March 08 2006 |
Complex Biological organisms cannot survive as much acceleration as silicon based computer systems. While taking over control of a drone by faking a control signal is incredibly difficult, barrage jamming could render remote controlled drones quite useless. Intelligent drones are far less venerable to barrage jamming. Edited by Nerdfish on 12-04-2006 07:26 To subjugate the enemy's army without doing battle is the highest of excellence. -Sun-Tzu
Until your enemies decided they don't want to be subjugated any more - The fish |
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| Ace22 |
Posted on 13-04-2006 03:10
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Posts: 4 Joined: March 24 2006 |
For one thing, I don't believe that there is any G-force in a microgravitic environment. Also creating a machine with 0, 1, and 2 switches (possibly more) is incredibly difficult, it is possible. Unfortuantely, I'm not certain whether it would allow for any semblance of Artificial Intelligence. But yes, if they are controlled by a remote from their mothership, jamming would work. But if they are self-controlled, they would be able to use T-waves, which allow much faster computers. coupled with the multi-switch processing, it (AI) might work. Mind like water...
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| Nerdfish |
Posted on 13-04-2006 03:51
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Posts: 30 Joined: March 08 2006 |
If you accelerate, you squash, gravity or not.
To subjugate the enemy's army without doing battle is the highest of excellence. -Sun-Tzu
Until your enemies decided they don't want to be subjugated any more - The fish |
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| MarieHawke |
Posted on 13-04-2006 04:26
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 Posts: 501 Joined: September 02 2005 |
Gravity is merely apparent constant acceleration, with your motion balanced by the normal force that the floor or whatever you're located upon pushing back so that you don't fall through. With acceleration in space, you might be moving at 10,000 km/s, but if you're accelerating at more than 9.8 m/s^2, then you'll be feeling a lot heavier. A starlight sharpshot magical girl!
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| Nerdfish |
Posted on 13-04-2006 08:52
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Posts: 30 Joined: March 08 2006 |
Drones can be fairly interesting. With only a few crewed ships, each become very important.
To subjugate the enemy's army without doing battle is the highest of excellence. -Sun-Tzu
Until your enemies decided they don't want to be subjugated any more - The fish |
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| Freezyguy |
Posted on 15-04-2006 18:46
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Posts: 17 Joined: September 04 2005 |
sorry double post.
Edited by Freezyguy on 15-04-2006 18:48 Therefore, to gain a hundred victories in a hundred battles is not the highest excellence; to subjugate the enemy's army without doing battle is the highest of excellence. -Sun-Tzu
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| Freezyguy |
Posted on 15-04-2006 18:46
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Posts: 17 Joined: September 04 2005 |
With the complete devestation that weapons cause in the NGSC universe I don't see how a human pilot could ever compete with a drone. There won't be a dogfight for humans to get creative with, its who sees first, kills first, and a drone would have better reflexes then any human could possible have. There is no dodging a laser. The part about hacking and subverting is also not effective. Currently it takes many hours, even days to crack encryption. Today your taking about encrpytion in the range of 1024-bit for govement uses, and if it is true like you say that AI in NGSC still use current computing styles, then any comander who rotates his encryption ever few days would have nothing to worry about. Edited by Freezyguy on 15-04-2006 18:50 Therefore, to gain a hundred victories in a hundred battles is not the highest excellence; to subjugate the enemy's army without doing battle is the highest of excellence. -Sun-Tzu
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| Mostly harmless |
Posted on 16-04-2006 01:03
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[118].jpg) Posts: 141 Joined: September 15 2005 |
Drones take less space and are cheaper. So more, more, more. Anyone read any banks books, excession? Computer do thing quicker and can predict you better that think. Even the CPU beneath you does something similiar. So CPU on person is too losable a game especailly in a space enviroment in ten years or more. |
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| Nerdfish |
Posted on 16-04-2006 05:55
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Posts: 30 Joined: March 08 2006 |
I think larger crafts would benefit from a combined command system with a biological and an electronic component. Since there are certain things you can do naturally that would take a lot of computing power. A good example is driving a car though complex terrain without aid of GPS. One could be surprised at things that robot can?t do very well, like putting a screw in the right place. Industrial engineers usually hire cheap labors for things like this. Different strength actually arose from fundamental architecture of biological and electronic computers. All biological congestive capability are emergent from their embodiment in the environment and their constant adjustment to it while electronic computer rely on symbolic processing capabilities. I think each have its advantages. However for small crafts, the benefit of dual command does not outweigh cost of life support. To subjugate the enemy's army without doing battle is the highest of excellence. -Sun-Tzu
Until your enemies decided they don't want to be subjugated any more - The fish |
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| Freezyguy |
Posted on 17-04-2006 22:35
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Posts: 17 Joined: September 04 2005 |
I would have to agree that robots do have some difficulties in completing simple tacks, however traveling at 1000+km/s makes human reflexes increadibly slow in comparision. Also piloting a ship in space does not require any kind of dexterity or accuracy that truing a screw requries as a drone can rely on targeting computer, then all it has to do is "pull the trigger". Nerdfish is again correct as it is very hard to interpret data from positioning lasers and GPS. However space is for the most part, just wide open space. The only part a droid would have issues is in major fleet actions and in asteriod fields. However entering close proximity to a fleets is suicide so asteriods could be the only source of a problem. Then again computing during this time period has to be far supirior to our current abilities so it will just compund that fact that a drone can easily trounce a flesh and blood pilot. Therefore, to gain a hundred victories in a hundred battles is not the highest excellence; to subjugate the enemy's army without doing battle is the highest of excellence. -Sun-Tzu
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