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 Conclusion to "defense field" technology - by Glacialis
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 14-09-2005 03:40
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 Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Quote so that you don't have people using HS gates to put explosives on your engines. Not possible. At all. At least in the way you put it. |
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| madcow305 |
Posted on 14-09-2005 03:52
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 Posts: 28 Joined: September 06 2005 |
Quote TelQuessir wrote: Quote so that you don't have people using HS gates to put explosives on your engines. Not possible. At all. At least in the way you put it. Open HS gate inside engineering compartment of BB, throw a few antimatter bombs, detonate. This isn't possible atm? |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 14-09-2005 04:58
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
No.  |
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| Inert |
Posted on 14-09-2005 05:01
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 Posts: 388 Joined: September 08 2005 |
If not so already, most capital ships have integrated gravity well modules, making hyperspace weapons useless. And the fact that you'd probably only attack capital ships with this sort of weapon, its usefulness would be short indeed. |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 14-09-2005 05:22
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Ever considered the mass of the ship itself? |
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| madcow305 |
Posted on 14-09-2005 16:14
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Posts: 28 Joined: September 06 2005 |
Quote Inert wrote: If not so already, most capital ships have integrated gravity well modules, making hyperspace weapons useless. And the fact that you'd probably only attack capital ships with this sort of weapon, its usefulness would be short indeed. If gravwells are integrated already, why is there still any option to build a Hyperspace Inhibitor? Quote Ever considered the mass of the ship itself? Again, if the ship is big enough to act as a natural gravwell, why are HS inhibitors still buildable. Unless ofcourse, this is going to be changed in v7.0, and HS inhibitors will be removed. |
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| myrddin |
Posted on 14-09-2005 18:18
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 Posts: 16 Joined: September 06 2005 |
Quote TelQuessir wrote: Quote from Inert in following post: "First thing I must add is that hyperspace is not an alternative plane, it is a process. It uses a linear tunneling effect, which while searching I managed to come up with quantum tunneling (skip this part of you just want to get straight to the point). If you have a better excuse don't hesistate to interject. -OPTIONAL READ- It is based on quantum mechanics and, I'll repeat again I did this research by myself so there maybe errors. It is stated in quantum mechanics that objects are probability waves of finite extent. Meaning while ordinarily an object may not be able to phase through walls, in quantum mechanics the probability wave may extend through it. Now this is where things get a bit wierd. The hyperspace core itself generates a quantum wavefront. A wavefront itself is an imaginary surface connecting all the points of space with the same phase (i.e same amplitutde, period, etc) of electromagnetic energy. Since in quantum mechanics, all objects are probability waves they are able to connect onto this wavefront and to any point with the same phase as it. I'm assuming anything within 2500 lightyears is fair game. -MAIN POINT- Anyways as you can see, weakning real space is not going to work. You can however, state that is opens a hyperspace gate as an alternative. Tel did mention that the targetting system drain wouldn't be much of a problem. And if I am correct, the HDS (should be hyperspace defence system... either that or HSD) would not be able to block 100% either. So you could possibly say that the energy drain prevents the system from being 100% accurate. Anyways, my second point is that DEWs are made of matter and not pure energy weapons (the term DEW is misleading itself). Plasma is simply a fourth state of matter and ion beams are simply accelerated proton beams. I don't have an alternative suggestion right now but maybe later." Please hang on for this one, it may get long, but there are useful justifications inside. Thanks! I hate to bog the discussion, but I have a grasp of the quantum physics that might be involved ... and the science fiction concepts being thrown around, too. Quantum translation is not much like 'teleportation' via Star Trek transporter. Nothing has to be memorized. The quantum state of the given object exists. The universe is your backing store -- you're a manifestation of a probabilistic set in the quantum foam. If we're going to state that the Hyperspace Cores work on this principle, this could make life a lot simpler. Think of this as the Orson Scott Card "Wishing Makes It So" postulate. Hyperspace gates tie the quantum states of two places together. Far-leaping is harder to justify, but since it requires the Cores, we can suggest that the Cores are capable of selecting wave-functions for physically remote locations and transposing state. The universe is a nifty toy. The physics, as long as you have a doohickey to account for causation (i.e. a Hyerspace Core), doesn't require a portal, doesn't entail lossy conversion, doesn't entail an actual B5-esque hyper-spatial realm [although if you need something like that, we have six extra spacelike dimensions for every point in space - you can deflect an object's momentum into one of them and watch it stop -- I'm not sure if that actually works, but they should be like our usable 3 in every respect], just quantum tunnel and you're there. Fire redirection can't entail necessary storage; it would have to be instantaneous. You need to identify the quantum waveform, and reliably translate it to the point in space having the desired characteristics (i.e. This End Toward Enemy, or at least Not In The Face). This has quite a targeting load. I'm not surprised that a) missles are hard to do, and b ) DEW is next to impossible. Observer effect allows you to lock down a quantum waveform. Your targeting system is your observer. Your targeting comp can lock down projectiles, with simple motion and simple mass. Missles have more complex motion, but are still observable; they move fast, so reliable waveform identification gets a bit harder. DEW is high-energy particle beam; it's not one thing. Which part are you making disappear? How can you tell? By the time you've observed the particle, it's hit you. Maybe we could block a beam mid-stream, if it were continuous, by averaging the quantum state of the beam, and redirecting particles matching its energy (ignore position, you can't get both). Gravity wells are intrinsic to mass. Hyperspace Inhibitor Field is better terminology. If we assume that we're talking about a quantum-level effect, we make the quantum state of the space around us non-observable (how?), and nothing can arrive. We obviously know our state, and so we can tunnel out. Fleet-com enables return? But that doesn't work, because the moment an enemy ship enters, our space is observed, and our quantum wave-forms locked down. (also, in that event, from outside, the HIF effect would be a cloak field as well.) This is a toughie. Maybe more later. Myrrdin. |
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| Glacialis |
Posted on 14-09-2005 19:37
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 Posts: 368 Joined: September 02 2005 |
Quote madcow305 wrote: Quote Inert wrote: If not so already, most capital ships have integrated gravity well modules, making hyperspace weapons useless. And the fact that you'd probably only attack capital ships with this sort of weapon, its usefulness would be short indeed. If gravwells are integrated already, why is there still any option to build a Hyperspace Inhibitor? Quote Ever considered the mass of the ship itself? Again, if the ship is big enough to act as a natural gravwell, why are HS inhibitors still buildable. Unless ofcourse, this is going to be changed in v7.0, and HS inhibitors will be removed. The mass of a ship is enough to prevent a gate INSIDE of it. Hyperspace inhibitors work over a large area. |
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| Inert |
Posted on 14-09-2005 23:35
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Posts: 388 Joined: September 08 2005 |
Quote Think of this as the Orson Scott Card "Wishing Makes It So" postulate. The fact is hyperspace is not instantaneous. And furthermore cutscenes seem to indicate there is activity going on during hyperspace. Quote although if you need something like that, we have six extra spacelike dimensions for every point in space - you can deflect an object's momentum into one of them and watch it stop -- I'm not sure if that actually works, but they should be like our usable 3 in every respect If you're in quantum physics you should know by now that dimensions aren't different realms. They're all layers, we can't exclude dimensions from one another. Quote Fire redirection can't entail necessary storage; it would have to be instantaneous. We are not storing it into hyperspace (and hyperspace is not instantaneous), the mere term hyperspace shouldn't even be used in such context. By creating a somewhat large unstable hyperspace "net", all incoming bullets are caught and transported. With no end destination and it being an unstable condition as it is... well you get the idea. In no point is hyperspace a "dimension" nor do the bullets "go" somewhere. Quote ...so reliable waveform identification gets a bit harder. DEW is high-energy particle beam; it's not one thing. Which part are you making disappear? How can you tell? By the time you've observed the particle, it's hit you. Reliable? We're not making a reliable waveform remember? And as I've said before, we're not making each and every single particle, round, or missile jump with their own gate, we're creating a rather large hyperspace "net". Anything that is destined to hit that net shall be neutralized. Quote Gravity wells are intrinsic to mass. Hyperspace Inhibitor Field is better terminology. If we assume that we're talking about a quantum-level effect, we make the quantum state of the space around us non-observable (how?), and nothing can arrive. We obviously know our state, and so we can tunnel out. Fleet-com enables return? But that doesn't work, because the moment an enemy ship enters, our space is observed, and our quantum wave-forms locked down. (also, in that event, from outside, the HIF effect would be a cloak field as well.) This is a toughie. Maybe more later. I don't know what you're talking about but quantum wavefronts are closed because of the system alerts. If a ship were to jump into a gravity well, some very bad things would happen. So this system alert would halt the waveform and prevent you from jumping. |
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| madcow305 |
Posted on 15-09-2005 00:26
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Posts: 28 Joined: September 06 2005 |
I was just thinking, if a capship is using this new HDS system, wouldn't it affect its own SC and vette waves somewhat? Not enough to actually phase them out, but enough to maybe mess up their systems? |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 15-09-2005 00:46
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Quote Gravity wells are intrinsic to mass. Hyperspace Inhibitor Field is better terminology. If we assume that we're talking about a quantum-level effect, we make the quantum state of the space around us non-observable (how?), and nothing can arrive. We obviously know our state, and so we can tunnel out. Fleet-com enables return? But that doesn't work, because the moment an enemy ship enters, our space is observed, and our quantum wave-forms locked down. (also, in that event, from outside, the HIF effect would be a cloak field as well.) This is a toughie. Maybe more later. Myrrdin. Thank you - that will be the background I will use for hyperspace, HDS, and interdictor devices. If you can coordinate with Glacialis and myself on the completion of working HDS background, it would be much appreciated. PDS requires RL backgrounding in what we're dealing with and not techno or typical game discussion babble. Right now the scientific aspect of things is being optimised. |
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| Inert |
Posted on 15-09-2005 01:14
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Posts: 388 Joined: September 08 2005 |
@madcow305: No, actually all of this HSD happens relatively close to the hull if I remember correctly. They may have changed this. |
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| Freezyguy |
Posted on 15-09-2005 01:53
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Posts: 17 Joined: September 04 2005 |
Well all this openning gates to slice ships in half sounds cool, but implementing that in this game would be nearly impossible. Everyone likes reading this fluff, but if it has nothing to do with the actual game, then its a waste of time.
Therefore, to gain a hundred victories in a hundred battles is not the highest excellence; to subjugate the enemy's army without doing battle is the highest of excellence. -Sun-Tzu
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 15-09-2005 02:11
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Quote Well all this openning gates to slice ships in half sounds cool, but implementing that in this game would be nearly impossible. Everyone likes reading this fluff, but if it has nothing to do with the actual game, then its a waste of time. Actually, you're wrong. And only an ignorant fool will speak in such a manner. You may make yourself scarce from this forum. Permanently. I believe I have placed a lot of hints as to what we do as a hobby in this paragraph: "PDS requires RL backgrounding in what we're dealing with and not techno or typical game discussion babble. Right now the scientific aspect of things is being optimised." Edited by TelQuessir on 15-09-2005 02:12 |
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| myrddin |
Posted on 15-09-2005 04:03
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Posts: 16 Joined: September 06 2005 |
Inert, The double quoting works for LKML, but it eats message board space, so look upwards a few. 1) I know. Activity goes on in hyperspace in the cut scenes because the game isn't designed by physicists. Also, I'm just running off the idea that hyperspace might be quantum tunneling. It's a great idea, but not built into the simulation reality from in front. 2) I also know that 11-dimensional space is a whole super-symmetrical cloth. Momentum transfer works in three dimensions as any high-school physics student should be able to tell you. Why shouldn't we be able to deflect momentum 'sideways' into spatial 4-9 via field effect (yah, sf concept, I know) or [in]elastic collision? That was, however, a more frivolous thought. 3) how do you create a hyperspace net? Assuming (the previously mentioned) remote field effect from a mini-Core in the ship, and a targeting computer capable of recognizing the quantum state of an item and twining it to somewhere else, all you need to know is what's coming at you and where you want to put it, to fine (quantum waveform) granularity. Heisenberg says you can do this either with position or with energy, but not both. Projectiles and missiles can be positionally determined, and so are easier to transit; DEW can't reliably be position-located, but energy states can be observed. Remember that I'm doing this based more on QM than Homeworld backstory. Feel free to reject my grounds in favor of Homeworld backstory. I'm going to contradict it before I can reconcile with it. The game itself is not originally consistent with QM. It's a sci-fi game. 3b ) Quantum waveforms (intrinsic to every object, as everything is a probability function of the quantum foam) don't just cease to exist, and 11D super-space being what it is, there's nowhere to put them but somewhere else in the same 11D space. I'm not going to get into parallel 'branes. I have enough trouble with this one. Projectiles displaced from one area of the battlefield must then *be* somewhere else, generally with their momentum. Unless we displace them 'around' d4-d9, in which case I have no idea what happens. 4) I had forgotten that HW uses waveform to describe the hyperspace event itself. See the above comment. Waveforms collapse on observation, either to position or energy. Please realize that all previous comments in thread, by me, are predicated on quantum mechanics more than game reality. Take my physics meaning before you take my game terminology meaning, but by all means argue with me.  I'm a hobby physicist.The end idea is that we can just *do* it (wishing makes it so), since we have an excuse (the Cores), but we need a balanced methodology. They'll go somewhere (where is a problem), but hopefully not at us. If anybody can tell me how to neutralize a quantum waveform, we can even make them cease to be (with QM justification). Or we can ignore QM. Always a possibility. But QM kinda cuts out the whole "Make a Capital Ship disappear!" idea for sheer complexity's sake. Sure, if you want, but you're going to be observing it forever, and it'll kill you in the meantime. Thx, Myrddin. |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 15-09-2005 05:25
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Myrddin - it would be much appreciated if you could do a submission for the v7 manual in the following manner: Do a "what it is (definition)", and "how it works" for the three subjects I talked about in my PM to you. What I see here is a very intuitive background for one of the deepest mysteries of the Homeworld universe. Don't worry about cramming it full of QM terminology - I am not following Relic's canon documentation at all. The main thing to keep in mind is that we want the devices doing the same things they do now. Edited by TelQuessir on 15-09-2005 05:28 |
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| Inert |
Posted on 15-09-2005 05:40
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Posts: 388 Joined: September 08 2005 |
Well I felt double quoting was much easier, but I guess you're right. 1) I've been kind of researching into hyperspace mentally at night. It could be related to quantum tunneling, but like you said it was not built from quantum physics. 2) While momentum does indeed work in 3 dimensions, there is no telling what the other dimensions might be. Take a look at Time, which is most likely considered the 4th dimension. There is not even a physical manifestation of time, so I don't know how that would work, much less dimensions beyond. 3) In order to explain how this would work I'd have to explain how hyperspace works, which is unfathomable at the moment. But I'm leaning off the fact that hyperspace uses gates, and anything going through that gate is heading into oblivion. Simple toned down version. All you need to target is the general position of ammunition at that crucial point. 3b ) I am assuming they are subjected to some sort of transformation, obviously nothing can ever be destroyed nor created. Not sure what would happen if I took an unstable wormhole... 4) Why is it that waveforms collaspe on observation? I'm sorry but I don't quite understand. Waveforms are collasped due to the system alert that is programmed into each core when a gravimetric anomaly is detected. It is good to start picking out the technical details which have been left dormant for sometime. Keep up the good work.  edit: Also... what Tel said, keep the quantum mechanics in there and I'll sift through it. Ultimate decision to keep Relic documentation lies with Tel. edit: Oh by the way, do you have a messenging system? We could talk more freely in real time about this. Edited by Inert on 15-09-2005 05:43 |
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| myrddin |
Posted on 15-09-2005 05:42
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Posts: 16 Joined: September 06 2005 |
Tel: Can do. Here's some of the 'more' I mentioned earlier on "Gravity Wells" - brainstorming, so it needs help. Hyperspace inhibitor field, from a quantum mechanics perspective, is a pain in the neck. Which may mean it's just not a QM thing. But I'm going to try and stretch around it. The inhibitor is a field effect, covering a large area external to the ship generating it, but centered on the generator, so it is a symmetric field, and it is not persistent, because when you take away the generator, the inhibitor effect stops. So we 1) aren't truly modifying the space itself, or 2) are doing so only temporarily, as with electromagnetic polarization. Not that "space" has any intrinsic material to modify, so ignore 2. What the inhibitor does in-game is establish a perimiter into which opposing ships may not hyperspace, but which is permeable to friendly hyperspace transit. Like the Defense Field on the frigates, it is an interdiction barrier that has no essential effect past the perimiter. No, I'm wrong. Enemy ships cannot hyperspace out of the inhibitor field. So it has a full-range effect out to some intrinsic generator limit, which becomes the perimiter. Anybody remember the Niven short story where Bey Shaeffer and company are in a ship transiting through the solar system and suddenly the hyperdrive is gone? Singularity effect ripped it clean off of its mountings. (Sorry if I spoiled the story for anyone) Maybe the inhibitor field works on the hyperdrive cores themselves, and not on quantum wave forms. But it can't be an indiscriminate effect, because friendlies are unaffected. Whitelist? The problem is the selectiveness of the field. How do we do this? (What's our excuse?) Agh. Not everything transiting hyperspace has its own core. Hyperspace is also a field effect of localized intensity (the pink sphere). |
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| Inert |
Posted on 15-09-2005 05:47
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Posts: 388 Joined: September 08 2005 |
Yes the hyperspace inhibitor field (shall refer to as HIF for ease) is a pain to explain (ignore the rhyme). I hypothesized that the generator creates a sort of graviton field. I've yet to delve into this but what are your thoughts? |
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| Minime |
Posted on 15-09-2005 05:58
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 Posts: 25 Joined: September 08 2005 |
I do have a suggestion for Inerts second point above, about the effect the '4th' demension might have on a missile or railshell. I would think based in time, the object could be shoved or deflected into another time, that would the point/location for it to go, but its in a different time when there was no object at the point the missile or shell was being fired at. it would continue on in a linear trajectory forever (unless it of course came across a planets amosphere or asteroid or something) It could deal with several of the issues, so could "Defence Fields" in essance shove a projectile into another time? and if QM is bad enough maybe Temporal Mechanics wouldnt be any better. *disclaimer, im not much into QM, but this would be my take on what has been said, or at the least a direction to go.* Edited by Minime on 15-09-2005 05:59 "No expantion without equilibrium.
No conquest without control. Pursue success in serenity. and service the tau'va." Said by, Shas'o T'au Shi'ur, Commander of the Fifth Ten-Cadre |
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