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 Ground warfare in PDS/NGCS phase II
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| Itharu |
Posted on 10-03-2006 23:04
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 Posts: 363 Joined: September 23 2005 |
However old, the closest example we have of a taskforce assaulting a planet it from HW1 mission 3. The planet was firebombed in the end, but not before the assault group took a fair amount of losses. Even the poor and inexperieced missile defense system of the Karrakians did damage however failed to keep the Tiidani foces away. In HW2, a MDS was again used to keep the planet from invasion reason possibly being that bombardment technology was poor and that seiging was a better option at wearing down the Higariian navy. But in logistical terms as I see it, you would have three levels of planetary defese. The first being immediate orbital space. Missile platforms, a space fleet, a defense net to keep things from achiving low orbit around the planet. As a refrence note, the gundam series had fleets intercept fleets, which usually never worked. The next line would be Surface to Air interception. Although covering the entire plants surface from ground level is a very large and diffuclt matter, methods such as interceptor fighters and missles would have to be used and tracking enemy movements as best as possible. Maybe even have some submarine patrol groups incase they tried to land in the planets oceans, if the planet has oceans. Again, the gundam series as a refrence, actually didn't use this for all the Earth federation's power. They could never stop fleets from landing on Earth. Lastly, ground forces bunkers deep underground. I think it's safe to say that in the 60th century you could place a bunker and military complex roughly 500-1000 metres below the surface. Maybe they wouldn't have the greatest reaction speeds to an invasion force, but the invaders would be unable to do much about the facilities without ground invasion to flush out the forces. But Yasotay makes a good point with the seeing and talking. You would first want to cut a planet off from external communication with a blockade. That in itself would have a hard time since communication systems would be quite fast and diverse in the signaling methods. Been reading a book that deals with how chaos in space based social systems will run amock when their highspeed communications systems are blockaded, which has resulted in financial systems grinding to a hault amoung other things, -Fear the Might of the Imperial Cortharian Fleet
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| Ironwatsas |
Posted on 11-03-2006 01:52
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 Posts: 856 Joined: October 21 2005 |
Assuming the blocade and orbital defences have been delt with, what's the next step. Please list some of the units and tactics that would be used in the following hypothetical scenario. For example, your forces must capture the capital city of planet >insert name here<. The city is spread out and is surrounded by plains to the east, low hills to the south, mountains to the west, and ocean to the north. The city is set up with open farmland to the east and suburbs to the south. The industrial area is in the northwest and has several factories and anti-orbital batteries located around an armor depot. The main HQ is in a bunker under an office building somewhere near the main spaceport. The spaceport is more than large enough to land 3 LiirHra cruisers at once, and has the proper docking scaffolds, but is the largest concentration of armor and CIWS in the city. The mountains are so rough that even a small squad transport would have trouble landing, but there is a well hidden artillery emplacement somewhere up there. The enemy has mostly infantry in the city center and their tanks and ASCAs are guarding the outskirts. there is also a sizable civilian population inhabiting the area so collataral damage must be kept to a minimum. the enemy also has air support coming from somewhere in the mountains, but their location is unknown. Now what do you do? |
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| yasotay |
Posted on 11-03-2006 03:51
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 Posts: 637 Joined: September 09 2005 |
First let me say that if you are going to invade a planet you would first likely implant special forces around the planet as early as possible. They would do the special forces sort of things like sow dissent and try to pick apart electronic networks. So that when you do show up their networks collapse and if the SF are real good there is a dissatisfied group of people on the planet as well willing to buck the government. Now how to take down the city? Benevolent way = seed the atmosphere and put everyone to sleep and walk in. Not so benevolent = slag a town nearby and give them time to think about it. Alternate is slag the capitol immediately then tell the next city they are next if they do not surrender. Repeat until they surrender. Old fashioned way = go block by block when someone shoots you shoot back. You have to have more troops than the defenders, lots of them. Very expensive and time consuming. |
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| Ironwatsas |
Posted on 11-03-2006 06:09
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Posts: 856 Joined: October 21 2005 |
We'll go with the old fashioned way for now. |
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| Itharu |
Posted on 11-03-2006 19:35
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Posts: 363 Joined: September 23 2005 |
Quote Ironwatsas wrote: For example, your forces must capture the capital city of planet >insert name here<. The city is spread out and is surrounded by plains to the east, low hills to the south, mountains to the west, and ocean to the north. The city is set up with open farmland to the east and suburbs to the south. The industrial area is in the northwest and has several factories and anti-orbital batteries located around an armor depot. The main HQ is in a bunker under an office building somewhere near the main spaceport. The spaceport is more than large enough to land 3 LiirHra cruisers at once, and has the proper docking scaffolds, but is the largest concentration of armor and CIWS in the city. The mountains are so rough that even a small squad transport would have trouble landing, but there is a well hidden artillery emplacement somewhere up there. The enemy has mostly infantry in the city center and their tanks and ASCAs are guarding the outskirts. there is also a sizable civilian population inhabiting the area so collataral damage must be kept to a minimum. the enemy also has air support coming from somewhere in the mountains, but their location is unknown. Now what do you do? This plan is under the assumption that I have any type of unit at my disposal since I sucuessfully control the planet's aerospace. Step 1: Gaining an advantage. Given that there is a mountainous region that is impossible to aquire via tansportation, I neutralise it via slow bombardment, involving massdrivers and missiles. Not heavyily, but enough to make the stationed forces there aware that I am wataching them. Hopefully that would cripple their artillery support. As for the space port, sugical bombardment using rail guns to scare the troops up, but leave the main facility mostly intact. I would completely remove the industrial facility and it's defenses. Step 2: Forward Troop Deployment: During this op, I would bring two ASCA Transport (modified LHs) and being they're direct entry deployment to the South-East. All units would be scattered and re-entering on their own escentially in silent running mode to avoid interception as best as possible. This would mostly be comprised of fast moving and heavily armed troops. During their transit, a second bombardment would commence on outlying troops. In addition, I would make to have my own air units (interceptors) deployed outside of enemy attack range and have them come in from the east to cover the first wave of landing foces. They would then head over the city, avoiding the starport and city centre to make an assult on the mountain fortress. Once ground troops had landed, communication jamming would be implaced as best as possible. Step 3: Capturing the space port: This would be the primary objective of the ground forces. Moving fast I would have them take and secure the port as the bulk of the ground forces began their landing run. Additionally I would have the ground forces secure all major land routes into the city (rail systems, high-ways). Since this is urban warfair, a majority of my forces would be mobile infantry and gunships support since a tanks effectiveness is greatly reduced in a situation as that. Alternate Step 3: If the port could not be taken, I would have it destroyed and move landing operations to the east which ground forces and air support would secure it as best as possible. Transport frigates would be deployed consiting mostly of Heavy armor instead of mobile infantry. The re-mains of the port would besecured as a special task force would land in the mountains and route out the forces encamped there. Step 4: If my first objective was achived, ground forces would slowly press into the city centre, and eliminate resitsance. Once an area was propely secure, heavier armor units would be introduced (mostly ASCA troops). The bunker would be found and taken intact as possible. Alternate Step 4: Given that landing additional troops would be difficult, ground forces would make a fast hard press into the city centre and the bunker would be removed. A command centre would be errected and I don't know if I would continue to fight in the urban setting or pull out my forces seeing as there wouldn't be much in terms of production value remaining and since it is the Capital, other forces would be moving into recapture it. -Fear the Might of the Imperial Cortharian Fleet
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 13-03-2006 04:36
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 Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Most interesting. If we are going for the ASCA (ie, armoured infantry) corps as the primary mode of mobile warfighting, we would probably end up with a Starship Troopers type of scenario. Differences are of course that the Starship Troopers mode of ASCA delivery can be very dangerous for us as it requires a large ship to, for a few moments, maintain a geostationary position over the drop zone until all the troopers are fired out of the ship. You -can- do this in the present PDS-AS universe but only if no one has the capability to shoot at you. If they do, you're facing a potential loss of a ASCA regiment to missile fire, or a total screwup case if someone below has a heavy laser, anti-orbital massdriver or particle beam weapon pointed at you. What would be most critical for successful ASCA insertion against planetary targets is something stealthy, fast, and survivable enough to be able to ballistic-drop right into a planet's atmosphere without prior preparation (imagine Apollo capsule "crashing" into Earth atmosphere at 25km/s at the end of a Moon mission). The faster this dropship can insert itself into an atmosphere and recover in terrain following altitude for its mission, the safer it gets. In this case it is probably desirable to have the ship's outer, spaceflight hull be a separate entity altogether from the atmospheric, VTOL capable craft within. The outer hull functions as the heatshield for hypervelocity insertion into a planet and also the braking mechanism (don't want to become a heroic lawn dart), after which the outer craft is jettisoned. If it is desirable the spacecraft could be a simple (giant?) sphere carrying multiple infantry delivery vehicles. |
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| Itharu |
Posted on 13-03-2006 04:54
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Posts: 363 Joined: September 23 2005 |
Ah a sphere. Reminds me of the old BattleTech (Mechwarrior) Ships. Their dropships where spheres. Yes, some kind of complete dropship would be better in situations where large ammounts of units would have to be landed. The first landing phase of my plan was to drop individual units escentially powered off and using mechanical systems to give lower readings to whatever surface to air enplacements a much harder time trying to target units. Factors in this all include; Drop angle (90 degress, or aerobreaking from the other side of the planet to give a lower entry angle), gravity affecting termial velocity, air resistance, wind direction. As for having an orbital dropship, I would again attempt to have it in silent running to avoid dectection until it can be a safe distance from interception. YE OLDE REFRENCE: Macross Plus had a single fighter break past the orbital defense of earth by scattering debris along it's decent flight plan and free falling to the planet. It pretty much worked. Hell if anything, you could scatter a bunch of dummy entry probes to give off false signals or even drop equipment through a heavy storm. -Fear the Might of the Imperial Cortharian Fleet
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 13-03-2006 05:10
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
I would think that any sort of prolonged deceleration in an enemy atmoshpere would be easily observable due to the visual and thermal profile for such an event. This is the rationale of plunging into said planet like a doomsday asteroid (of course, with all systems on passive in ingress phase), making the re-entry event, the most dangerous phase of the operation for a stealthed craft, a short one. The storm idea might work against a less technologically adept foe. Get some spec ops team to artificially trigger a huge ecological disaster to mask an orbital invasion. Now, on atmospheric engines - I believe the plasma drive coupled to jet engine principles might be most feasible here, since airbreathing engines will only work in the rare terran type planet. |
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| Thorin |
Posted on 13-03-2006 05:10
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 Posts: 414 Joined: September 02 2005 |
Well, you could always deploy smaller units armed with a mass driver delivery system for drop pods and tactical kinetic strikes. If you fire down a scanning probe with the troops and get telematry while the pods are still en route, you can have your smaller ships deliver tk strikes to ground-based defensive structures. EDIT: Also, if you use the dummy drop sort of scenario, you can just resort to atmospheric plasma bombs and burn the whole procession. Of course, I'm not sure if that would be a really bad idea and light the whole atmosphere on fire... Edited by Thorin on 13-03-2006 05:12 |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 13-03-2006 05:17
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Yes Thorin those are nice tools - but we are talking about getting a powerful strike force onto an enemy planet in the fastest time possible without giving anyone any time to react. In other words I want to conduct a "shock and awe" on the division level with mobile ground forces before the enemy even realises that a few landing spheres with the best low-observable systems available, had bashed through their atmosphere and have now disgorged a large number of airmobile mechanised units headed at hypersonic speeds towards key targets. Key targets in this case might be any component of a ground based orbital defense system - knock these out simultaneously as the space navy takes out anything of value in orbit and you decapitate someone's government in a single stroke. As usual the gallant spaceborne part of the operation would get more desirable public attention than the ground part  Smaller units is a valid suggestion - for a different type of war. Edited by TelQuessir on 13-03-2006 05:19 |
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| Itharu |
Posted on 13-03-2006 06:18
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Posts: 363 Joined: September 23 2005 |
I would not thing a drop operation would not occur with out some form of PRE bombardment or bombardment during an op. If you think about it, any facility firing from the ground could be detected in the air and would instantly be painted as a target. I think the best kind of counter method to that would be to have a bunch of AATanks take shots at incoming troops. But that may not be applicable in all situations. And I cannot see an entire orbital defense system being ground based.... It wouldn't have the best back-up systems in my opinion. Suggest a review of Mechwarrior fiction / games, since it deals with dropping 50-100 ton mech units onto planets, as co-vertly as possible before ground lasers shread the units. Sometimes they do it as single units, other get dropped in massive spheres. Look into it, there could be some insparation there. -Fear the Might of the Imperial Cortharian Fleet
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| lolroflroflcakes |
Posted on 13-03-2006 07:30
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 Posts: 9 Joined: March 10 2006 |
The troops being dropeed should be lanuched as soon as the bombardment starts. It could be risky due to stray rounds but it would be very unbalancing for the enmy to be hit before the smoke from the bombarment even clears. That way you could win against a vastly supierior for while taking as few casulites as possible once the landing zone is secure then you land the vehicles and larger troop transports there. Just to big of a target of surviving AAA to be sent in on there own without there lz being cleared. if done properly you can take enemy held positions in a matter of minutes. Mech wouldn't be able to survive the descent because their legs would snap on impact. There is just no way they can weigh 50 tons and have the amount of shock absorbtion needed to make a survivable landing. Edit: spelling and stuff. A bit hard since some of the text was so messy I may have interpreted it wrong. :sigh: /Homy Edited by Homdax on 13-03-2006 08:08 |
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| yasotay |
Posted on 13-03-2006 19:34
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Posts: 637 Joined: September 09 2005 |
Unless you have overwhelming superiority of numbers and casualties are of no significance (remember you are after a WHOLE planet) attacking without preparations is a receipt for catastrophic failure. The standard rule of thumb for offensive operations is to have a three to one superiority over the defender. So let?s say you?re after a peace loving communal planet that has a defense force whose job is to rescue people and be around for cool parades and air shows. If it has a population like ours you are talking about a million (minimum) active defenders. You can do the rest of the math. If you focus on only one point of attack the defender has only one point to concern themselves with for defense. You must create multiple cascading dilemmas for the defender that he cannot overcome. You must be inside their decision cycle. That means by the time they figure out what to do with one problem you present them with three more. As you all have surmised you must have trans-atmospheric superiority to even start the effort. As a minimum you must maintain full spectrum dominance at your landing point(s). This is why the electronic war is part of the preparations. If you cannot keep the enemy from coordinating his defense you are likely going to fail strait away. If you can keep the defender from organizing you have a far better chance, even with inferior numbers (like the Coalition special forces against the Taliban Army in Afghanistan). If you control the high ground and can keep the defenders from getting their act together you can overcome the numbers game above. As an attacker, time is your enemy. The longer it takes to execute an action, the more time the defender has to react and adapt. Unless you are willing to execute draconian warfare against them they will find weak elements in your plan and exploit them (remember this is survival). So house to house is terribly inefficient logistically for the attacker and usually does nothing to make the locals think you are not so bad after all. If the millions or billions of people think they can outlast you and realize that they have WAY more people, you as the attacker have a big problem unless slagging cities is not an issue. Now the successful attack of a planet is only the beginning. As the former Secretary of State for the US (and a former Army General) told our current administration ?You break it, you bought it.? So you now own the controls of a planet with hundreds of millions or billions of mouths to feed. If they get the notion you won?t slag them when they get uppity, the occupation will be long and expensive. Current world events should give you a clue on that. You want to do it to a whole planet. IN CONCLUSION: Even with a billion strong military force you are not going to go around attacking planets on a regular basis. More likely you are going to kick the enemy space force out, and then broadcast to the population that in order to remain a space faring population with all the lovely imports from elsewhere they are going to have to listen to the new management. If there is some exotic mineral you need, that you cannot find on rocks in space or less contentious planets, you will take the area you need and explain to the population you will leave them alone as long as they leave you alone. |
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| Itharu |
Posted on 13-03-2006 20:28
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Posts: 363 Joined: September 23 2005 |
However, planets may not be completely filled. I think most planetary invasions directly deal with outlaying colonies (populations ranging from 100,000 to 10 million). Higgar only had ~200 million people living there at the climax of the seige. Sure capital worlds are going to have massive populations and highly population dense urban regions. But depending on the planet, the population density can be clustered or vastly spread out. (for example the urban desities of Japan vs Canada. Take a look at google earth maps of large cities and see how they compare. It is a model that can be applied to a planetary scale.)
-Fear the Might of the Imperial Cortharian Fleet
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| Nemmerle |
Posted on 13-03-2006 21:33
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Posts: 113 Joined: September 16 2005 |
Computer technology should easily be great enough that you can drop your assault forces at the same time as bombardment weapons are being fired at the surface. However good someone's C3I system is there are going to be hundreds of thousands of incoming rounds lighting up the sky in every frequency, some of them would probably be EW overload rounds set to detonate above the surface with the purpose of creating a complete sensor blackout. Among that sort of thing you wouldn't even need to stealth the pods, no-one would be able to shoot anything they hadn't already marked as a target and since you couldn't maintain a lock on the orbital or drop forces you couldn't shoot them reliably. |
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| yasotay |
Posted on 13-03-2006 23:19
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Posts: 637 Joined: September 09 2005 |
Both are valid points. First density of the population and the available tech level will greatly dictate the level of battlefield geometry. For instance a Space Marine Regiment (per our hypothesis here) with frigate and destroyer backup in orbit could probably put our real Earth in the same bag as the Taliban found themselves in with the Special Forces in Afghanistan. A more dispersed population though can be as challenging as ones that clump themselves in large urban environs. Recall that America had everything going for it when it went to Vietnam, technology, economics, training, etc. However a far smaller and very much technologically inferior (by western standards) society living for the most part in rural settings ultimately stood up to it. As to the technology game Nemmerle posses, I would not disagree. Many of the larger military organizations today have the means to do just as he suggest as far as overwhelming enemy capabilities and inserting forces at the same time. Likely any Anti-access strategy would have a very robust effort that at least philosophically, does as he mentions. Smashing your way in will likely not be very different. My real point is, Why? Space political confrontation may be more akin to Medieval Siege warfare. It would be even more pronounce on smaller outlaying colonies that would be more prone to reliance on import of technologies and perhaps sustenance. If you control the space from whence the supplies come, why make the exceedingly expensive (in lives and resources) invasion? The option for the population is to live in isolation or agree with the new leadership. Certainly some places would revolt if they were more self reliant. So What? IF they cannot launch a force to contend space with you, what do you care. Do you really care that they immediately agree with your position? Do you have to own the entire planet to acquire whatever resources you are after? If your answer is still yes I am going to crush the planet under military occupation, then I would recommend that in the 60th Century you send in Cylons on the first waves. By then unmanned ground systems ought to be pretty robust, considering where we are in the 21st Century. Besides they can take a lot more ?gravity? than humans. Let the defenders fight off and die killing machines. Once you have a secured location, and then send in the ?squishies? to win the hearts and minds of the local population. |
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| Itharu |
Posted on 14-03-2006 00:40
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Posts: 363 Joined: September 23 2005 |
A thought has come to mind about trade in space. What is one thing easily abundant in space that would not be readily available or easily accessed given previous discussion about technology... Fuels. If fusion reactors are in deed used on planets, the fuel requirements tend to be quite exotic (the hydrogen isotopes), and would mostlike be quite expensive, if not critical for most operations on a planet, large or small. And to add to the Vietnam point, the American gurellas of the rebellion gave the British a run for their control. You may not need numbers or a technical advantage, but a change in non-traditional tactics can help win. (Although it was organized tactics that won the Romans many battles). In the end, and for any egagement, I highly suggest you pick the battlegrounds and terms of the battle whenever possible. -Fear the Might of the Imperial Cortharian Fleet
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| Nemmerle |
Posted on 15-03-2006 10:22
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Posts: 113 Joined: September 16 2005 |
Quote yasotay wrote:My real point is, Why? Space political confrontation may be more akin to Medieval Siege warfare. Speed. The longer you remain on station the longer the enemy has to mobilise forces to relieve the garrison. When that happens you'll be caught between the planet's remaining orbital defence weapons and the approaching fleet. The thing we need to realise is that being anywhere near a planet would actually be very dangerous for a starship. You're not going to detect all their weapons. Today we have things like stinger missiles that a single man can point at a plane and have a reasonable chance of shooting it down. There will very likely be stealthed energy weapons capable of hitting a starship in urban areas in addition to the planet's more obvious defence systems in orbit. The weight of firepower might be on the side of a fleet action but it's going to be a lot easier to remain at standoff range, saturate the planet with fire and send down some troops to secure it than it is to assualt the planet directly and lose most of the fleet to a few thousand weapons on the planet's surface. Why? It's faster, it's less costly both in equipment and lives. Quote yasotay wrote:IF they cannot launch a force to contend space with you, what do you care. Do you really care that they immediately agree with your position? Do you have to own the entire planet to acquire whatever resources you are after? You can't just secure an area and then bring down ships to take what you want. You'd just get plastered by the OD weapons on your way up. Getting troops and ships down isn't a problem if done right, it's boosting back out of the gravity when you're going to be most vulnerable. You might secure an area, take everything you want, load it on a ship with a few thousand troops then try to leave and get blasted from the sky by missiles or beam weapons. Under these conditions whoever controls the ground controls the air, in order to take what you want you need to control the air, thus you need to control the ground. |
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| Itharu |
Posted on 15-03-2006 11:41
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Posts: 363 Joined: September 23 2005 |
Here's an interesesting factor to now think about in planetary invasion; Space Elevators and Orbital Rings. Perhaps they would have them in the 60th Century, perhaps not. Either way they become a vital part to plantes space econonmy. Additionally to Military forces. How do you see it fitting into the equation when you begin an invasion or countering one? *Side note: Orbital elevators ( as I know them) are quite long (roughly 120% the circumfrance of the planet surrounding them) and located at the planetary equator. So take inaccount length, and orbital rings will placed a sizeable distance from a planet's upper atmostsphere. Edited by Itharu on 15-03-2006 17:24 -Fear the Might of the Imperial Cortharian Fleet
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| Thorin |
Posted on 15-03-2006 16:45
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Posts: 414 Joined: September 02 2005 |
Burn your bridges, or arm them to the tongue. You could use them as insertion denial installations if they are durable enough. If not, I highly suggest you sever its ground tether. |
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