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 Question about mass drivers?
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| FinalSeraphim |
Posted on 07-11-2007 23:21
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 Posts: 252 Joined: July 11 2006 |
Honestly, I think we should all pay attention to sun tzu, His point is probobly the best here.. this is not a game based off of Actual factual physics, it's a Great game with ideas ported over from actual physics.. If you wanna get retardedly technical, Explain their gravity? explain their hyperspace.. explain how they get Ionic Cohesion within a very confined space to form a beam of Protons more or less that act as a cutting tool on solid forces instead of igniting them.. Explain their sensors, Explain Demographic growth beyond normal parameters and how no one really can explain where the universe came from and how everything is still such a mystery.. Here's the answer. If someone wants a plasma cannon, Let them have it! we have interstellar ships travelling faster than light, why not have a plasma cannon.. I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last... the beginning and your end.
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 08-11-2007 02:53
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 Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
This discussion interests me in overhauling the weapons configurations of ships in V11 because rather than having a dozen lightweight turreted systems it makes sense, for the same mass and power used, to have just one or two massive spinal mount plasma cannons for maximum range and power. I'm not talking about ships comprising merely a flying main gun, but vessel whose main armaments are meant to be used as at long a range as possible and be as lethal as possible with its first strike (balanced by slow recharge time to promote tactical planning). Secondary weapons of reasonable number and effectiveness provide the ship with close in capability against flanking targets and also support the main weapon during the recharge phase should a capital ship target manage to close the range. |
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| Mostly harmless |
Posted on 08-11-2007 03:26
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[118].jpg) Posts: 141 Joined: September 15 2005 |
Remind me. What is the difference between rail guns and plasma weapons? Both use magnetics to fire packages out into space. Its the difference the weight of the projectile and the effect of impact or proximity of explosion. |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 08-11-2007 05:13
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Regarding the possible "muzzle velocity" of plasma weapons as more likely towards that of a particle beam than a shell, it was already acknowledged in V11B8. That's why they use beam weapon accuracy but generally suffer from shorter range. Wheras projectile weapons can do barrage fire with low probability of hit solutions way outside of their "effective" direct fire range vs maneuvering targets. Space is huge and the velocity of railgun-fired projectiles is considered tiny compared to that of beam weapons. Lasers top the chart in range but deal the lowest damage, but Hiigarans still use outdated laser tech on capital ships because of the range and probable multi-role function as jammers, comms devices and/or sensor systems besides use as a weapon. I have posted a similar conclusion, and some PDS V12 development info on the main page news as well. Edited by TelQuessir on 08-11-2007 05:30 |
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| Makaze |
Posted on 08-11-2007 15:57
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 Posts: 53 Joined: May 29 2006 |
Mhmm, explosions. The mine as an acid-delivering device suggestion was more for the Watsas' benefit, to help him plan his acid-based weaponry and do not reflect the views of myself, this thread's participants, and PDS as a whole. Ahem. So, they would be battleships in every sense of the word, once again - a single volley of extremely heavy weapons at maximum range to start an engagement, and smaller weapons to fight off the little buggers that nip at their heels. Also, you could rely on heavy turrets a la Star Wars as opposed to spinal mounting everything again - sure, they are more vulnerable to subsystem attack, but it's always frustrating in a frigate duel to wait until the Resolution can line up his bow-mounted guns while he's getting shredded by the Quarinah's lighter plasma lances. Also, spinal mount weapons are nigh-useless if the enemy manages to close with the battleship in question and get around/ behind it. Historically, the small guns you mentioned were barely capable of fighting off the flimsy aircraft of the time, much less other battleships! "...We sank a truck!" - Commander Sherman, Operation Petticoat
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| FinalSeraphim |
Posted on 08-11-2007 16:56
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Posts: 252 Joined: July 11 2006 |
To MH, The difference is nothing really. A plasma Shell would denote a plasma cannon, so thus the trinity cannon onboard a Vaygr BB is infact a Spinal Mount Rail gun system loaded with ultra-heavy dense Plasma shells. or "bolts" Probobly caused by a small device surounded by a cloud of super heated Gas, the device inside the shell uses a strong electro magnet to hold the gas in place and probobly a small thermal heating unit to keep the gas in a plasma state. The difference between the two are simply the payload. A railgun is like a shotgun, You have many different types of rounds it can fire.. You got your buckshot for frigate duties.. You have your slugs for destroyers and basic combat, and your Plasma shells for reacting with electrical currents and its obvious explosive ability for larger ships. Now a plasma beam is quite different.. The beam itself would in a way act like a giant Magnifying glass, focusing light onto a hull target, then using some sort of Phase trajectoring and magnetic infusion, a stream of Plasma would be, "Projected' onto the hull. It would burn through most hulls, including magnetic ones which, depending on the gas, speed up the process.. Ion weapon is somewhat weak in the HW universe and PDS, A actual ion cannon upon impact would immediately rip parts from the hull due to the Charged status of the beam. The beam energy itself would tear electrons or Protons in a basic attempt to become neutral again. The targets hull would be a prime target, Ripping electrons from any type of hull plating and distorting the material itself. Force of impact would then take over and cause the much needed tearing effect that would take place, More or less ripping the Hull of the ship apart. Now as electrical energy moves through the ship, many systems would be destroyed, especially highly tuned Devices like sensors and so fourth. Even if they were grounded, you're talking about lightning strikes INSIDE the ship. The ship itself would become a massive semiconductor. Frigates would be completely life less in one shot, only the largest of largest ships that had the area volume to dissipate the Electrical energy would survive the first shot. But seeing as many ships use multi-Megawatt Ion arrays, that would most likely not only tear a large hole in the ship and create a vacuum inside the ship, but turn it into a mini battery at the same time. Now for games sake.. We have ions that dont exactly follow true to life circumstances.. We have railguns that dont fire completely across the map in 10 seconds.. Fun is the issue here. If I made two frigates that fired Two 100mm Shells at say 10 km/s.. your mothership would probobly break in two from sheer stress of impact. Now if that happened right at the start, it wouldn't be very fun.. lol. I think we can end this discussion with a simple, It's ok the way it is. Like starwars "Blasters" Everyone says they are lasers but for one, they are visible, and two, they travel at the speed of light.. How cool would starwars be if just suddenly the entire droid army caught on fire right that beginning of the battle on the second star wars movie.. just suddenly "POOF!!" burn! and the battle is over. I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last... the beginning and your end.
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| acelynham |
Posted on 08-11-2007 17:22
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 Posts: 183 Joined: September 23 2007 |
hm ive never been great at physics, but i'm pretty sure that railguns are a one trick pony, mate- solid slug, bam- end of. anyway these discussions lead to people actually going out and making these things a reality in game- wasnt it a lack of PDS weaponry (which would be there in RL) that got this mod started in the first place?  |
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| FinalSeraphim |
Posted on 08-11-2007 17:26
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Posts: 252 Joined: July 11 2006 |
That's like saying that modern rifles are a one trick. You have sabot rounds, heat rounds, even flak type rounds, why cant ships in a super futuristic setting have varied ammunition.
I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last... the beginning and your end.
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| acelynham |
Posted on 08-11-2007 17:29
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Posts: 183 Joined: September 23 2007 |
hmmm i spose. still, like i say i dont know much about the physics affecting the round as it is fired |
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| FinalSeraphim |
Posted on 08-11-2007 17:32
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Posts: 252 Joined: July 11 2006 |
There's no chemical reaction nor a explosive charge that could potential damage a plasma based round which would ignite AFTER it left the tube. Sure, it'd be a fast round but if as soon as it left the barrel, it exploded into thousands of shrapnel, that's a "Holy Frigate" heh
I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last... the beginning and your end.
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| Aldirin |
Posted on 08-11-2007 23:46
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Posts: 8 Joined: November 04 2007 |
Final Seraphim; no offense but the entire point of a particle cannon is to bombard a target with tremendous kinetic energy. You are hitting an object with something non-massive, but it is going a large fraction of c. It would ionize the ship, but that's not really different than playing with a plasma ball. And generally a railgun round is only going to fire something ferromagnetic... because it's following two magnetic rails. This means slugs. Given the velocities railguns operate at, anything other than a dense penetrator isn't going to do much (why use HEAT? You are impacting at high velocities, a cannister shell almost makes more sense, but again flawed, I don't want to think about fusing with that). I am glad to see that Tel read Mike Wong's essay, he is a much smarter guy than I could ever pretend to be. Plasma particle beams make much more sense than plasma blobs ever could (even if you have some kind of super shell). Viral theorem also hurts blob plasma or even plasma shells. Plasma beams would generally just be a given mass of plasma projected at tremendous velocities. In practice the only difference between a relativistic kill weapon and a particle beam is... one has much more mass and generally seems less likely for that reason (lots of energy needed). Although I do love the MACs from Halo. I have to admit my initial point was me playing devil's advocate. I don't mind plasma blobs at all (I love Babylon 5 and Doom), I do think that aiming for realism in many ways is impossible with the Homeworld engine, so I prefer embracing its flaws rather than rationalization. On the other hand, I do look forward to seeing the new changes (mostly particle cannon combat I imagine?). Lots of beam combat is going to look interesting. |
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| FinalSeraphim |
Posted on 09-11-2007 03:26
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Posts: 252 Joined: July 11 2006 |
I almost thought you were going to bring me a true argument, but instead, Once I saw your "Heat" comment, I realized you had no idea what I was saying. I am arguing that a plasma round is in essence unfeasible. Having a plasma round used in a Railgun wouldn't be very productive due to sheer kenetic impact. I used the argument that for a "blob" of plasma to be used, especially how it's portrayed in the game, A small device of some sort would have to magnetically hold the gas and keep it charged during the duration of its travel to the target. A slug would be far more productive in this matter. I also pointed out that the beam would be quite a bit more effective than a railgun.. My points are as follows, range, light speed, and ofcourse total power included. A beam casing that is able to hold inside a massive amount of Plasmatic particles would deal a large amount of kenetic and electrical damage. All of this I've said already. In contrast, to your heat comment. Let me explain. Grapeshot, I'm sure you've heard of it.. Imagine a grapeshot like railgun, instead of firing one super massive slug at ridiculous speeds, hundreds if not thousands of smaller "slugs" going at the same rate. It'd not only tear apart small ships but cover a much larger cone. My only.. ONLY point here was the fact railguns didn't have to just use one type of ammunition. This is where the Heat and Sabot Came into play.. Modern guns don't just fire slugs, Like a deer hunter has many types of Ammunition he can use... As does an Abrams Tank in combat. HE rounds, HEAT rounds, Sabot Rounds, I cannot remember the other but there is a shrapnel round if I recall as well... So once again, thanks for your insults and I hope that you finally understand that you obviously have my points all messed up with someone else's.. And I remember a Quote from one of our Fellow PDSers'.. Sun Tzu, He said "I think it is generally acknowledged that distances in HW2 should not be taken literally. Otherwise you have ship moving slower than current aircrafts and weapon ranges lower than today warfare." My point here is, If we go for TOO much realism, someone will realize that you can vaporize a ship from your starting point using a high impact shot from a large caliber railgun.. then next thing you know, it gets stale. Not every gun can be true to life, This was my total and complete intent upon writing anything here in the first place. Someone asked where plasma shells came from, the most viable source, A rail/Coil weapon... As to not damage the round itself. Because having plasma inside a giant Case really wouldn't do any good.. and having plasma outside would require a smaller device to house the said gas, and at that speed kinetic force would do the job ten fold. I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last... the beginning and your end.
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| Aldirin |
Posted on 09-11-2007 05:35
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Posts: 8 Joined: November 04 2007 |
Everyone who isn't a troll can look at my last paragraph. Seraphim, well I don't tend to do well with trolling responses, especially strawman. I'll basically simply say in many ways your "scientific" answers are generally invalid. They rely on half-understood concepts. Just as a briefing on the concepts read this. http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/ai...berds.html I'll quote directly: "The characteristic that distinguishes the particle-beam weapon from other directed energy weapons is the form of energy it propagates. While there are several operating concepts for particle-beam weapons, all such devices generate their destructive power by accelerating sufficient quantities of subatomic particles or atoms to velocities near the speed of light and focusing these particles into a very high-energy beam. The total energy within the beam is the aggregate energy of the rapidly moving particles, each particle having kinetic energy due to its own mass and motion." A plasma beam would be the exact same concept, except plasma going at these incredible speeds. Not some kind of projector. Now, there are secondary and tertiary killers associated with such incredible energy levels, but they are not ionization on the hull destroying it. Instead you can create a EMP, and a ionized radiation (x-rays, neutrons, fun things like that). They would rely on impact with other particles, so this would be a fun effect within a ship. In a vacuum no fun EMP or beta rays. Hey my reply to your half understood knowledge of Lorentz force and how it operates? Yeah, it was basically me pointing out how stupid the comment was. A different shell fusing might make sense, but a railgun requires the shell to occupy the entire rail, one rail being an anode and the other a cathode. The current created is what ejects the shell (or slug). This is also why railguns have really high barrel wear in modern experiments. Grapeshot? Oh boy, a railgun can certainly have loosely packed metal shards in it! That's a great conductor! Again, this is why I made a case for cannister or case shot, and this requires fusing. And it makes no sense given the distances that are apparently involved in PDS. Railguns would be obsolete unless you have a huge capicator to give it enough energy to actually go even faster. But this entire pargraph? It's essentially fluff, I don't care enough to do more than point out all the things you hardly understand. Why? I've never been an advocate of pure realism. I was being a devil's advocate in many ways. A short summary for everyone not named Seraphim: I'll apologize for my incredible passive aggressiveness in this post. I don't want this kind of realism modeled, I want fun. I like railguns, but I changed the ingame files to change the plasma blobs to kinetic bullets. It isn't a huge deal. It was kind of selfish of me, though I did also want the team to think about it. Generally I thought PDS was modeling HW2 combat at the same ranges as the base game, if it models much longer ranges my railgun comments are not necessary. I also understand if a moderator wants me and Seraphim to stop mucking up this thread for no reason (perhaps it could be retitled to weapons of PDS instead of mass drivers?) Or maybe even close it, it has almost outlived its usefulness. |
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| FinalSeraphim |
Posted on 09-11-2007 21:41
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Posts: 252 Joined: July 11 2006 |
I love the cute insults! And half understood concepts? hahaha, once again, Obviously my point wasn't made clear.. but, as you said, Dealing with your trolling insults and arguments is really not doing any good.. But anyway, Are you a dolt? honestly, Let me explain this a third time... HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A BUCKSHOT THAT WAS JUST LOOSELY PACKED PELLETS? NO, IT WAS ALL INSIDE A CASE, AND FOR A RAILGUN, IT WOULD USE THE CASE TO PROPEL DOWN THE TUBE (Obviously completely the connection between the cathode and anode.) , GAINING THE SAID SPEED, THEN AFTER EXITING THE TUBE, IT WOULD BE REMOTELY DETONATED, ALLOWING THE SHELL TO OPEN AND RELEASING THE SAID PARTS, IF THIS IS NOT CLEAR I WILL GIVE YOU MY PHONE NUMBER SO I CAN SCREAM IT INTO YOUR PHONE AS LOUD AS I CAN! Your half-assed Insults and obviously Downwards look upon everything I said is really saddening though. I don't even see why you're arguing in the first place.. It's somewhat ignorant of you to sit there and use human research as a basis for a sci-fi video game. There are so many unknown variables.. Perhaps different magnetizing methods? Perhaps different metals with varying properties that as of yet unexplained by modern science..I mean seriously, even with modern Physics and materials, you'd have metal rails that would erode rapidly from pure friction and electrical discharge by operating the weapon in the first place, I never seen any resource collectors with extra rails nearby to replace the rails after every few if not every single shot. So many things are unexplained.. perhaps even more so is this hyperspace.. Please Professor dickweed, Explain hyperspace to me. I also want to point out the original post by who ever started this magical conversation, A mass driver is a Coil gun, which works differently than Railguns in the first place. A coilgun would seem more viable for an actual grapeshot, or as you put it, tightly packed little pieces.. rather than an actual shell as I mentioned the FIRST time. So before you reply with more asshattery turning this into a flame-war, My point IS valid for a science fiction setting.. you're using at modern PDS times, outdated Modern Earth time variables.. You're comparing fruits to vegetables. Yes some concepts still apply and I DO understand them completely.. But coming up with new ideas for a futuristic setting requires out of the box thinking.. So once again, before more smart ass comments about you knowing more than me and not caring to explain because you're a self appointed devils advocate.. I rather use Jehovah's witness for your obvious lack of other points of view. I'll just reply with this single Phrase! Trodden in the Sands of time as a merciless unforgiving gesture of My impatience for your Pure disrespect towards myself. You sir, are an Asshole. Edited by FinalSeraphim on 09-11-2007 22:10 I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last... the beginning and your end.
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 10-11-2007 01:30
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
In one of today's research railguns the shell's aluminium (if I'm not wrong) casing turns into plasma due to frictional heating. It continues to conduct electricity and so the payload continues to acclerate without friction. Everyone reading - perhaps you should actually start commenting on the threads with CONSTRUCTIVE material. Like the RP Seraphim and I did last night. Otherwise I will close this forum, make it read-only and ban everyone who doesn't have his priorities straight, that this site is meant to push PDS forward and not stagnate in useless bickering... which most unfortunately is what I see all the time when I'm not in full operational control. Which means you get nothing but shit from me for the past year or so as I divert more time and resources to more appreciative communities. Like RL, because as you veterans are aware I start off from the tail end charlie of local society and fight tooth and nail upwards and see that with this waste of time called PDS in my very little free time I demonstrate significantly better mental and organisational capabilities than ALL of this community combined, which is why today I still hold full authority over the creation of new content in PDS. That, gentlemen is reality. The support you give me, as demonstrated aptly in this very thread, is nil. That has been so ever since I employed out of the box techniques to advance PDS to the next level - by doing experimental stuff insteead of rehashing stock HW2 over and over again. As such you shall, from now on, listen to what I have to say and do, and acknowledge that I am developing this universe, or shut the hell up. Your freedom of speech can go straight to hell, should you wish to rebutt with that point, for you have not earned it in the first place, but rather employed that human right as a tool to breed idiocity. Witness the Kassi, a totally unwanted piece of shit, that for a very long time has been touted as the ULTIMATE space faring nation in this universe, with far superior culture, technology and intelligence to anything in the game. It helps greatly that the author in question is the master of self deception, ignoring any and all dev team feedback that would threaten his fantasies. Divert all that wasted effort to my vision of PDS and I believe we would have created our own commercially viable works of fiction already. Not that I aim to since this project has obviously served its intended purpose and completed its research objectives. That's why I dare to tell the truth so bluntly in the first place 
Edited by TelQuessir on 10-11-2007 01:42 |
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| Aldirin |
Posted on 10-11-2007 04:12
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Posts: 8 Joined: November 04 2007 |
It was a waste of my time to try pointing out the obvious, or disagree with GOD |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 10-11-2007 07:49
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
The conclusion of this.. argument does not change the fact that this is one of the best discussions about SF weaponry I've seen on this site. Now learn how to keep the objective of the next such discussion intact instead of doing it to satisfy your own ego. |
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| acelynham |
Posted on 10-11-2007 19:27
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Posts: 183 Joined: September 23 2007 |
lol everyone needs to calm down, it's just a game (much as i do enjoy it) |
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| FinalSeraphim |
Posted on 11-11-2007 01:17
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Posts: 252 Joined: July 11 2006 |
Ace, You get the award for very late punchline 07' lol. So lets focus on non Railguns, Lets focus on what the original thread was, Coil guns, which are much different, Instead of using the Lorentz force Equations and obvious rail utilizations. With a Coil gun, you lose the potential to "burn" your own rails and damage your entire device through heat exchange not only due to the fact that you now dont have a cathode and anode electrical exchange taking place, you wont have to have your device powered on fully the entire time. The Coil works in the most basic way, you have powered magnets in a line. Lets say magnet A-G.. (Probably an idea for a massive spinal mount CoilGun.) As the Object is put into place, A Activates, pulling the Object towards it.. Once A has been reached, B activates and A shuts down, Continuing to pull the object forward. As it continues this path, speeds increase until it finally hits G, which upon arrival, would be moving quite quick. The Coilgun, just so everyone knows, is what most Apply as a "Gauss Gun" or "Magnetic Accelerator Cannon" Or MACgun.. in your precious Halo. I believe that the Coilgun would be a Energy saving Device due to only partial Magnetization. It would most likely save on Burning parts as well due to the fact that if the round itself is held in a round magnet, it should "levitate" instead of being forced to be the completion of a circuit as in a Railgun. Imagine a Frigate, that the entire hull is a supercharged Coilgun. It would infact be the ships from Halo. seeing as that is what they are. It would also cut back on the turrets lol. I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last... the beginning and your end.
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 11-11-2007 05:40
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
CGs as discussed scientifically in the time of NGCS here generally had lower maximum velocities than RGs. But their "frictionless" nature means that they are much more practical for close in barrage high rate of fire weapons. To avoid this altogether all ballistic or cannon type weapons in PDS are classified AC (autocannon) which covers all sorts of propulsive means for slugs. RGs with plasma casing acceleration (aforementioned, hence the muzzle flashes in HW series and quoted high muzzle velocities) would generally be your general purpose short range assault weapons with CGs and advanced chemical ACs taking up the role of barrage fire. Note that I specifically mention RGs as assault weapons and CGs/ACs as barraging or less capable assault cannons but having higher rates of fire. I will repeat that in the distances and velocities involved in actual space combat, ballistic weapons (including direct fire missiles) are equivalent to knives in a gun fight. Definitely you can throw knives beyond their effective range (face to face) for critical damage but only if the target is stationary. And what Sun Tzu said about HW2 scaling. See V7.6 for what happens if you made combat truescale in this engine. My final point today is that I still see zero response to the RP experiment thread. It is the controlling factor of PDS V12's presentation, you know? Tell you what, I will wait 2 more days and if I still see utter crap being posted in the forum and shoutbox, we will move to a more, shall we say, efficient method of V12 production. |
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