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 The Fist of God: Battle Barge spammed by AI, too powerfui?
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| acelynham |
Posted on 26-09-2007 20:27
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 Posts: 183 Joined: September 23 2007 |
i want to put the arelian defender in 11.8 as a line capship between the PoH and Maj so even those of us that dont play with unitcaps allowing more than one Maj can still take out a battle barge in less than an hour |
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| thecactusman17 |
Posted on 27-09-2007 03:01
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 Posts: 5 Joined: September 25 2007 |
It has always seemed to me--and forgive me if I'm mistaken here--that the Hig in PDS have been about the cruisers and heavy caps while the Vaygr and Tai have been about strikecraft and small ships. Thusly, Hiigarra maybe ought to get more frigates and capital ships designed to quickly deal with fighters as backup for their larger anti-cap bretheren? You would figure that given the classic success of flak frigates against light fighters in HW2, the hig would maintain strong anti-fighter ships to make up for the lack in numbers of their fast-movers. |
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| yasotay |
Posted on 27-09-2007 04:07
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 Posts: 637 Joined: September 09 2005 |
"Boom and Zoom" in this case means using the move attack. Have the Liir Hra maneuver to either side of the target ship and give them crossing vectors. They attack the ship but continue through and beyond the range of the weapons. Because of their speed they are able to get through the enemy fire zone before being crippled. It was most effect against the old Vaygr/Taiidan battle cruisers and remained effective against the later versions of the Vaygr heavies. It also allowed you to 'drag' the Vaygr vettes out where you could kill them with focused fires. This became less effective with the advent of the Shamshir. |
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| Dafeaz |
Posted on 27-09-2007 14:39
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 Posts: 84 Joined: September 02 2007 |
What I don't get is how the BB is able to maneuver to keep pace with my Arbiters. Tried a new tactic yesterday sending five total Arbiters against a BB, each one attacking from a different angle while a Maj provided fire support and I spent every fighter, corvette, and frigate slot on anti-strike craft defenses. To my horror, even as my Arbiters moved on parallel vectors around the BB, the damned thing simply brought its main cannons to bare on each of them one at a time. How does something that big turn so damned fast?! I'm thinking though. What if we scaled up the MGC concept into a frigate, similar to Kiith Somtaaw's old multibeam frigate? Five or so PIC combined with a few AC100s in a heavily armored package, could be just what the Hiigarans need against the Vaygr. Also, any tips for bringing the Arbiter Mk.IV in to replace the Mk.V CE? Just for my own personal experimentation. http://www.nationstates.net/feazanthia
Resident forum lurker, no coding or modeling skills required! Turnin' Battle Barges to swiss cheese and lookin' good doin' it. |
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| Komo val |
Posted on 27-09-2007 15:02
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Posts: 392 Joined: September 27 2006 |
It moves so fast ?! Are we playing the same game?? The point is you need something to act as cannon fodder, while your heavy hitters move in. Note you must position your ships very close to the BaBa, because: a) the BaBa is in range of all of your's ship cannons And  The BaBA needs to turn a longer arc for it to bring it's main cannons to bare. Plus if you get close enough the BABA must also go reverse since there are no collisions enabled in PDS, and the thing is slooow. |
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| Dafeaz |
Posted on 27-09-2007 15:08
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Posts: 84 Joined: September 02 2007 |
Its top speed is slow, but it was pivoting in one spot and it seemed to be able to keep its main guns trained on my Arbiters. One blast from those puppies and the poor Arbiter is dust. And I was trying to keep them close enough that even the Arbiters' PD guns were blasting at the damned BB. I haven't upgraded to V11 8.1 though, so maybe that has something to do with it. EDIT: I won the engagement, but my fleet was left so crippled that a Taiidan swarm came in and finished me off. That Dust Clouds map is so small! :mad: Edited by Dafeaz on 27-09-2007 15:10 http://www.nationstates.net/feazanthia
Resident forum lurker, no coding or modeling skills required! Turnin' Battle Barges to swiss cheese and lookin' good doin' it. |
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| thecactusman17 |
Posted on 27-09-2007 17:22
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Posts: 5 Joined: September 25 2007 |
Quote Komo val wrote: It moves so fast ?! Are we playing the same game?? The point is you need something to act as cannon fodder, while your heavy hitters move in. Note you must position your ships very close to the BaBa, because: a) the BaBa is in range of all of your's ship cannons And The BaBA needs to turn a longer arc for it to bring it's main cannons to bare. Plus if you get close enough the BABA must also go reverse since there are no collisions enabled in PDS, and the thing is slooow. No, he's right: the BB can rotate at a surprisingly high speed. I tried attack-moving around it at multiple angles and it would track my ships easily. Though obviously, it couldn't float out to engage targets beyond its range too well. But it makes anything less than an overwhlming assault extremely difficult, because even without backup the vessel can easily move itself to focus those beam cannons wherever it so chooses in just a few short (about 15-20 for every 90 degrees) seconds. Frankly, it out-turns (at a standstill) every capship I have larger than the Hig supercarrier, and is still fast enough to track anything smaller that is still in the capships class. The auxilliary armament is powerful and quick enough to readily deal with anything smaller at standoff range, including bombers. As you can imagine, it's very aggravating. Yes, this is based on 11.81. |
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| Makaze |
Posted on 27-09-2007 21:30
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 Posts: 53 Joined: May 29 2006 |
Just take a Vagyr ally with you, and let his bombers kill the thing.  I sent 10 squadrons of I2 bombers at it and dropped it to 9/10's of its health before the squadrons died. Another four were able to kill it in a few waves.It takes four complete cycles, assuming all of the beams hit, of the beam weapon to kill a Majiiran. Try sending in the Majiiran with an antistrikecraft escort and then hyperspacing (who uses that anymore?) the rest of your fleet in behind it and ordering a full attack. The Majiiran should buy the time needed for the rest of your guys to pound the BB into dust. I find that anything with a heavy missile barrage is the best addition to an anti-Vagyr fleet. She simply can't deal with hordes and hordes of nuclear ordnance flying at her. That's not a tested theory. I always play the Vagyr in multiplayer myself. "...We sank a truck!" - Commander Sherman, Operation Petticoat
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| Komo val |
Posted on 28-09-2007 14:04
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Posts: 392 Joined: September 27 2006 |
Doesn't the BaBA have a hyperspace inhibitor ??? Turns fast ??? I didn't quite see that, but it could be by chance. Anyways as I said Park it very close and the BaBa will have to go reverse to turn and if its a big battle that could be quite difficult. A maniged to take 1/2 of the BaBA's health this way with a poorly escorted Majiirian. I will try a full scale engagement with this tactic and report. |
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| acelynham |
Posted on 30-09-2007 00:35
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Posts: 183 Joined: September 23 2007 |
with the re-introduced AD in my game atm, ive set it to a destroyerleader & unitcaps to 2, and 2 ADs plus a Maj can take down a BaBA easily, unless it has heavy fighter support. in particular the ADs can get very close and the baba cant fire its main guns & tho it has loads of weapons on the sides.... still nt quite good enough to win against a fully armed bombardment cruiser |
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| yasotay |
Posted on 30-09-2007 19:34
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Posts: 637 Joined: September 09 2005 |
This is why we have the beast! It causes us to think and adapt tactics. |
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| acelynham |
Posted on 30-09-2007 20:41
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Posts: 183 Joined: September 23 2007 |
yeah ill admit its annoying but its a lot of fun once you do kill it |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 01-10-2007 18:19
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 Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Looks like the Battle Barge concept ripped from Warhammer 40k works! Lets have a quick Q/A session: BaBa firepower: Bloody thing has 4 Progenitor Dreadnaught main cannons grafted into what seems like a quadruple expanded Vaygr cityship hull. Secondary weapons are a random mix of standard missiles (3rd generation equivalent), anti-starship batteries and 220mm barrage autocannons along with a remarkably huge arsenal of defense lasers covering the sides and rear. The front is poorly protected by secondary weapons because most of the nose structure is dedicated to supporting the main cannons. But no sane being would attack the beast from the front unless you can time the main beam shots (and as you run away from the main guns you go into the secondary weapon arcs). Front is most heavily protected by passive defenses, unfortunately. The monster has a huge lateral drive array which means she can use differential thrust (like RL multi-screw vessels) to turn. Of course, high G maneuvers are bad for the thousands of subsystems inside and will make the crew very uncomfortable, but in combat, who cares. BaBa weaknesses: Of course, any capital ship sized ballistic, beam or missile weapon will find the BaBa an easy target. However the thing is massive enough to shrug off a small taskforce's firepower. Force multipliers are thus needed; a large number of small attack craft with mass-destruction weapons is more effective in concentrating decisive force on the immovable object at hand. Thus I recommend Cutlass interceptors for their antimatter torpedoes, and Lavi assault shuttles for the nuclear drones and multiple AC275s. You need a lot of firepower to get through the BaBa's laser defenses as well as her fighter cover; but once that is settled, an entire wing of heavy strikers (and Avengers' quad AC100s) will eat the BaBa up fast. In time-critical anti BaBa operations I suggest grouping the ships with heavy assault weapons like aforementioned Lavis and Cutlasses together, and everything else for ASW and bombardment cover. Use the ASW group to engage the fighter wing; the bombardment group to bring forth a hail of long range ordnance onto the BaBa, then once the target fixtates on something, send in the strike fighter wing from an oblique vector and bomb the irritating beast to bits. To yasotay - Old model LiirHra ASW performance. Like the OHP frigates in the USN, these old boats perform well in the ASW (antistrike, not antisub, in this case, but both point towards naval support/escort roles, thus the comparison to the Perry frigates) mission. This is because beta 8 gives large laser weapons such as those favoured by the classical Hiigaran admirals, a very high hit rate and very long range. The weakness of coherent light weaponry is their inability to defeat modern anti-beam countermeasures (which in earlier V11 versions were created to counter the capital lasers themselves) but no strikecraft has enough armour to do anything to stop a heavy laser burst. So, the LH again becomes a good candidate for the HN's new-generation ASW cruiser. |
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| yasotay |
Posted on 02-10-2007 02:10
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Posts: 637 Joined: September 09 2005 |
I concur. I have always found that the LH series was devastating in the ASW fight. If I could afford to put it in that part of the battle I would. Because of its "boom and zoom" maneuverability it could operate well in that environment. I would recommend to Fleet Command that a retrofit of the existing ASM tubes with multiple MRASM racks as well as replacement of the heavy kinetic guns with higher rate of fire light weapons would create a very deadly ASW cruiser. This would in fact help redress the challenge of the Vaygr and Taiidan superiority in heavy combatants, as it would create a significant imbalance in the strike-craft zone. If the HGN is able to dispose of Vaygr and Taiidan strike craft, the HGN will be able to more rapidly use strike craft against the larger ships with good effect. I am of two minds about the retention of the main batteries. Retaining them provides the cruiser with a decent secondary capability against frigate and destroyer class ships. Conversely the removal of the ventral ion cannon and replacing it with a directional MRASM pod or ASM pod could be worthy of trial work. Sorry I could not resist the last bit as the ventral missile pod was one of the original design features of the early drafts of the class before it got out of dry dock, that we went through much discussion over. That was what...three years ago.  |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 03-10-2007 14:34
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Directional missile armaments are still used today; witness the nuclear rocket projectors on the LH-X-30. However vertical launch cells will be more efficient mass-wise in bringing to bear massive missile firepower in a short period of time. Not to mention, you can dedicate the turret's mass to carrying significantly more warheads. To Hiigaran Navy Commissioner - recommend commencing production on the LH block 25 ASW cruiser immediately. |
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| acelynham |
Posted on 03-10-2007 17:32
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Posts: 183 Joined: September 23 2007 |
who is doing that conversion? ill help if anyone needs |
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| Sir T |
Posted on 05-10-2007 12:22
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Posts: 16 Joined: October 05 2007 |
First post! While I am a complete newbie to the advanced level of Higaren fleet command (ie PDS) I decided to dive in at the deep end. After losing quite convincingly tot a battle barge on standard I set up a duel scenario with 1 Magarins and a fast battlecruiser ( cant remember the name sorry - new see) against a Battlebarge and a Battleship. This is a not an "in game style" fleet but in points value it was to the Vayger advantage. Battle starts and I start my 2 Majarins moving in opposite directions around the 2 vayger ships with the light Battlecruiser doing whatever it wants (I forgot to control it) Because of my inexperience (ie I'm crap) the Magarins kept stopping without me realizing and the Battlebarge kept getting blasts off with its main guns. Or trying to. I noticed something. While the BaBa does turn fast, it takes tome to get moving on the turn. In other words it needs to accelerate into the turn. By stopping and starting again I effectively cut down its turn rate to the level it could not actually fire on my Battlecruisers half the time, as by the time it had powered up the guns it was already moving again. I won the battle with severe damage to all my ships and the fast battlecruiser was almost dead, but the opposition was dust. Recommendations for commanders. Use the attack move command when engaging the BaBa. Do not keep moving as that simply allows the BaBa to keep following you. Stop and when its lining up on you begin moving your ship around again. You will be moving before the monster can start turning. You will eat some blasts if your timing is off but this strategy will be enough to counter the power of its main guns. You will continue to eat its secondary armament of course but there not much you can do about that. In other words, Move and stop. Move and stop. Vayger commanders can use your escort fleet to limit the Higarin main ships movements to counter this... I guess. And of course they have the swarms. Anyway, just an observation.. Edited by Sir T on 05-10-2007 23:58 |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 05-10-2007 21:03
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Very good, Sir T can become the HN tactical development officer here. You're the first one to observe the effects of inertia in PDS flight models - at least on the ships that have proper semi Newtonian setups. |
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| acelynham |
Posted on 06-10-2007 20:39
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Posts: 183 Joined: September 23 2007 |
Using 1 new AD and a Maj you can beat it AND a Kalifah+Double Dragon escort- (I imagine you may even pull this off with an L-X-30 or PoH, but I have not tried yet) the BaBa always goes for the bigger Maj, so once it takes the bait, waypoint it in a circular path towards the battle barge's current rear. The BaBa and Maj will engage and beat each other up, ignoring your second ship which you then bring up perfectly behind the damn vay ship (killing the Kalifah and DDs on the way)... if you get right up behind its engines it cant even really hit you, and your ship can inflict massive rapid damage on it. I won with a tiny bit of health left on both my Maj and AD, but I imagine a more capable commander could beat the BaBa much more comfortably using a similar technique. Also, I discovered the Linebacker is great at reducing missile effectiveness, to the point of making my AD virtually immune to the barrage of a Kalifah... swwweeet. |
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| SRI-Sajuuk |
Posted on 08-10-2007 13:34
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 Posts: 207 Joined: October 28 2005 |
How about if the SRI Corporation takes a swing at making a hiigaran counter? :thumb: im up for making one more PDS ship. |
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