Discussion Forum: List of key HGN Fleet Divisions

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List of key HGN Fleet Divisions
dohyung	#1 Posted on 21-02-2006 22:08
Posts: 9 Joined: February 19 2006	The almighty HGN is nothing without its structural agility and ability to respond with speed and precision. To achieve this, HGN is divided into multiple small fleet detachments known as "divisions." They are not named for their size, but rather for their role in the Hiigaran Navy: To provide extremely responsive small scale offense and defense while maintaining the balance between the firepower of a full-scale armada and agility of a small strike group. By regulations each division must have at least 4 wings of strike craft in escort formation to act as first responders in case of an attack and each capital ship must have room for at least one of these escort wings to ensure swift docking and hyperspace jumps. With strict regulations such as this, it is no wonder HGN is known for their tactical agility and discipline. 12th "Cobra" Attack Division Also commonly known as Serpent Division, the 12th is one of the few Hiigaran divisions whose primary objective is to launch counterattacks against Vaygr aggression and spearhead lightning raids on slow convoys of supply ships. Accompanied by their flagship Harmageddon, the 12th places heavy emphasis on lighter capital ships and frigates to ensure surgical accuracy and agility. ? Flagship Harmageddon - Tier IVH Heavy Battle Cruiser ? Capital Ships Dominance - Arcadia Auxiliary Carrier Reaper - LiirHra Block 15 Strike Cruiser Lotus - LiirHra Block 15 Strike Cruiser Affliction - LiiHra Block 15 Strike Cruiser Dusk - Marquess-A Escort Carrier Shroud - Marquess-A Escort Carrier Storm - Marquess-B Escort Carrier Rapier - Callisto Armed Patrol Cruiser ? Frigates 4 Linebacker VI-EC Flotilla Leader 8 Nightingale III-EC Support Frigate 15 Lothringen Ion Cannon Frigate 15 Bloodhound II-EC Heavy Gunship ? Strike Crafts 4 Thunderbolt Mk. 4B Assault Bomber 8 Light Strike Fighter 3 Kite Microfighter 3 Hawk Attack Drone 8 Avenger Mk. 3E 1 Tactical Scout 56th "Blackbird" Stealth Division The recent development in stealth detection technology rendered capital ships equipped with cloaking devices near obsolete when detectors are present. Fortunately such technologies are costly and difficult to deploy, limiting their use to frontline and planetary defense where such expenses can be justified. This limitation still allows for behind-the-lines operations employing cloaking fields and sometimes masking resource operations from enemy probes and scouts. The 56th division is one of the few divisions outside of HGNS whose purpose and force organization is kept secret. Despite this, it is a well known fact that every victory has something to do with the 56th division. 15th "Jade Talon" Reserves Division Despite its title, the 15th division sees action frequently due to the nature of the recent conflict. With HGN struggling to meet numerical requirements against the overwhelming Vaygr presence, well-trained and equipped reserves are in constant need across all sectors of the galaxy. ? Flagship Aura - Defiance II Command Cruiser ? Capital Ships Destruction - Tier IVH Heavy Battle Cruiser Moonrise - Arcadia Auxiliary Carrier Pulsar - Arcadia Auxiliary Carrier Cronos - Imperator IV Fleet Carrier Osprey - Imperator IV Fleet Carrier Cyclone - Arbiter III Fleet Cruiser Hurricane - Arbiter III Fleet Cruiser Serena - Callisto Armed Patrol Cruiser ? Frigates 3 Linebacker VI-EC Flotilla Leader 10 Lothringen Ion Cannon Frigate 8 Resolution II-EC Boarding Assault Frigate ? Strike Crafts 5 Blade Mk. 22C Class Interceptor 5 Thunderbolt Mk. 4B Assault Bomber 10 Light Strike Fighter 5 Avenger Mk. 3E 5 Hawk Attack Drone 506th "Condor" Planetary Defense Division The 506th division is well known for their ungodly ability to hold their ground despite all odds and their sheer size. As their title implies, the 506th division's primary objective is to hold and defend strategic locations and reinforce systems that are under attack. Due to the nature of their role, the 506th is one of the only divisions that place heavy emphasis on super-capital ships and continue to deploy and maintain the lumbering Arbiter III Fleet Cruisers . It is rumored that HGN might be secretly constructing a battlestar to aid the division for their future "defensive assignments," but the division commanders remain silent regarding this rumor. ? Flagship Agamemnon - Type-H Fleet Monitor ? Capital Ships Orion - Arbiter III Fleet Cruiser Liberty - Arbiter III Fleet Cruiser Retribution - Type-C Fleet Monitor Raptor - Harbinger IIM Escort Cruiser Pacific - Harbinger IIM Escort Cruiser Titan - Tier IVH Heavy Battle Cruiser Xavier - Marquess-A Escort Carrier Apollo - Marquess-A Escort Carrier ? Frigates 8 Nightingale III-EC Support Frigate 10 Bloodhound II-EC Heavy Gunship 6 Lothringen Ion Cannon Frigate ? Strike Crafts 2 Tactical Scout 4 Thunderbolt Mk. 4B Assault Bomber 2 Pulsar Corvette 5 Light Strike Fighter 5 Avenger Mk. 3E Coming soon - List of key Vaygr Battlefleet Task Forces Edited by dohyung on 21-02-2006 22:11


TelQuessir	#2 Posted on 21-02-2006 23:23
Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005	Fun. Now I have some motivation to conjure up some new scenarios for PDS


yasotay	#3 Posted on 22-02-2006 04:22
Posts: 637 Joined: September 09 2005	My compliments to you dohyung. While my 'vision' of the Hiigaran 'Fleets', vice your 'divisions' is different, I think this a splendid bit of work. Anything that can motivate Tel' to make new scenario for PDS is worth lauditory comment! With respects to His Tel'ness of course *with sincere bow and as straight a face as I can conjure*


TelQuessir	#4 Posted on 23-02-2006 04:43
Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005	feral growl in response to yasotay Say, do you want full-division engagements or individual "brigades" instead, to make it playable on low-end PCs? Edited by TelQuessir on 23-02-2006 04:45


Neix	#5 Posted on 23-02-2006 06:52
Posts: 6 Joined: February 21 2006	I like the idea of small brigades duking it out, as there has always been an emphasis on large scale homeworld games. PDS really opens up for smaller games, so I think smaller scenarios that offer longer game times would be fun and challenging. You can fly, you can fight, and you can crow. Keeping the memories alive.


dohyung	#6 Posted on 23-02-2006 07:02
Posts: 9 Joined: February 19 2006	Personally I'd like to see raid-type scenarios where a division's fast attack crafts terrorize a mortally wounded battlefleet while it attempts to return to its port, but it's entirely up to the majority opinion.


Sun Tzu	#7 Posted on 23-02-2006 10:53
Posts: 528 Joined: September 08 2005	Forget the lag and make them big! For the first time in 2006 I'll have a work-free weekend so I'm available if you want some support in setting SP scenarios.


Neix	#8 Posted on 23-02-2006 14:08
Posts: 6 Joined: February 21 2006	Quote dohyung wrote: Personally I'd like to see raid-type scenarios where a division's fast attack crafts terrorize a mortally wounded battlefleet while it attempts to return to its port, but it's entirely up to the majority opinion. That's a neat idea, with big ships blowing up as huge fleet crawls slowly towards a hyperspace point, cruisers exploding as small strike craft zoom in between taking down things slowly but surely. It'd be a great hunt. The player that is trying to flee should be given a set of anti-strike craft units after a certain amount of time or at the strts, so that they can respond to the threat. You can fly, you can fight, and you can crow. Keeping the memories alive.


Dei	#9 Posted on 23-02-2006 22:40
Posts: 12 Joined: February 19 2006	Hmmmmmmmm... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... I dunno, looking over this and your accompanying Vaygr fleet listing they just... don't feel meaty enough. While a "small" attack force such as one of the ones listed could concievably be used to great effect, there's simply no way the limited number of ships presented could defend even a single solar system. Hell, It would probably take a couple hundred vessels to simply cordon off the orbital space of an inhabited planet. For a real-world wet-navy, these numbers would be fine; hell, excessive even. For a hypothetical space-navy, the simple factor of scale needs to be considered. Unless the contentious powers (i.e. the Hiigarans and the Vaygr) dominions are a only a few planets across maybe one or two star systems, this strikes me as simply insufficient. We know that their respective interstellar territory is vastly in excess of a few planets across a couple star systems, so... Oh, my aching head...


Itharu	#10 Posted on 23-02-2006 22:44
Posts: 363 Joined: September 23 2005	You don't take into account of the ships abilites with the crews. Not to mention they can short jump in a solar system no problem. If anything these are specific battle groups that have made a name for themselves within the larger fleet. I'm sure there are many more generic fleet sitting around waiting to get called in for support, or calling upon these specialized fleets for support. -Fear the Might of the Imperial Cortharian Fleet


Dei	#11 Posted on 23-02-2006 23:17
Posts: 12 Joined: February 19 2006	I am actually considering short jump abilities in this assessment. If this is the average size of a full division then I do not believe it would be possible for a full division to defend a planet from a serious assault. The reverse, however, is not necessarily true; even a diversionary assault with a single division could stand a rather good chance of overcoming an defensive naval force of equivalent size if for no other reason than force concentration and local area superiority. I can accept these units as sub-divisions, but not as full fleet-units. Even with faceless 'cannon-fodder' waiting in the wings there just aren't enough of them unless the number of divisions runs into the thousands. Regardless, we seem to have a basic disagreement over space-denial and zone control. I shall state, unequivocally, my belief so that we can cut to the heart of the matter. Essentially, even with FTL response capability, a fleet cannot be everywhere at once without effectively cutting it's legs out from under it. Even with Homeworlds PDA and on-site construction capabilities, I've little doubt that, for example, a relatively lone carrier trying to commence such a process against even a fairly small but already formed attack group would be at supreme disadvantage. Particularly if they also have a PDA/on-site reinforcer. There are, of course a number of more nebulous factors like effectiveness of ECM/ECCM, tactical and strategic prowess, individual skill, sudden bursts of intuition, etc. which just muck everything up. At least quantifiably I find such things difficult to utilize in an argument such as this, though they are, as you noted, important. Or, maybe I'm just a fan of fleet sizes ranging into the mid thousands. Who knows? Oh, my aching head...


yasotay	#12 Posted on 24-02-2006 00:40
Posts: 637 Joined: September 09 2005	I have to agree that small scenario have a simplicity that is very enjoyable. One of my favorite games had me running with a Vaygr carrier and destroyer, having lost badly to the Hiigaran force. I knew I was not going to survive as most of the RU on the map had been consumed. I thouroughly enjoyed maneuvering to survive as long as possible. That said I also have almost all of the massive maps ever provided for HW2 and enjoy massive fleet actions where it may take 30 minutes to find the enemy. I think that smaller brigade/flotilla actions with specific missions (survive till reinforced, destroy before reinforcement, attack convoy, etc.) should be the starting point. Limit the ship types to create the challenge. The larger battles become for the single player a matter of how fast can you 'tech-up' max the fleet and slug it out. Smaller limited missions on larger maps would add more complexity by making more space to hide or search. Edited by yasotay on 24-02-2006 00:41


MarieHawke	#13 Posted on 24-02-2006 07:32
Posts: 501 Joined: September 02 2005	Hmm. These fleets feel somewhat underpowered, probably because I don't see the Deliverance in here anywhere. If you don't mind, I'll whip up the 225th Light Combat Division, alright? Let's see if I can't get that done by school return... EDIT: Wow. Deliverance is probably better for some sort of home defense fleet, with its lack of longer-ranged weapons. Interesting. Edited by MarieHawke on 24-02-2006 17:18 A starlight sharpshot magical girl!


dohyung	#14 Posted on 24-02-2006 17:33
Posts: 9 Joined: February 19 2006	Quote Dei wrote: I am actually considering short jump abilities in this assessment. If this is the average size of a full division then I do not believe it would be possible for a full division to defend a planet from a serious assault. The reverse, however, is not necessarily true; even a diversionary assault with a single division could stand a rather good chance of overcoming an defensive naval force of equivalent size if for no other reason than force concentration and local area superiority. I can accept these units as sub-divisions, but not as full fleet-units. Even with faceless 'cannon-fodder' waiting in the wings there just aren't enough of them unless the number of divisions runs into the thousands. Regardless, we seem to have a basic disagreement over space-denial and zone control. I shall state, unequivocally, my belief so that we can cut to the heart of the matter. Essentially, even with FTL response capability, a fleet cannot be everywhere at once without effectively cutting it's legs out from under it. Even with Homeworlds PDA and on-site construction capabilities, I've little doubt that, for example, a relatively lone carrier trying to commence such a process against even a fairly small but already formed attack group would be at supreme disadvantage. Particularly if they also have a PDA/on-site reinforcer. There are, of course a number of more nebulous factors like effectiveness of ECM/ECCM, tactical and strategic prowess, individual skill, sudden bursts of intuition, etc. which just muck everything up. At least quantifiably I find such things difficult to utilize in an argument such as this, though they are, as you noted, important. Or, maybe I'm just a fan of fleet sizes ranging into the mid thousands. Who knows? HGN would never leave a planet or launch an assault with a single division - If they wanted one all-powerful division they would've adopted a much larger fleet composition. The whole point of having divisions in a small scale is that multiple divisions can work together to achieve tactical superiority through uncanny agility and having the ability to independently make quick decisions necessary for the ever-changing battlefield. Even the biggest of defense divisions never works alone - they'are accompanied by multiple other defense divisions and supported by counterattack divisions when necessary.


yasotay	#15 Posted on 25-02-2006 01:48
Posts: 637 Joined: September 09 2005	Philosophically Tel' the only thing I see different from the earlier work where the Hiigaran fleets had task force units is that dohyung has called them 'divisions' instead of 'task force'. They are in some cases a bit more powerful that the old task force, but this might make for better small scenario.


Dei	#16 Posted on 25-02-2006 07:15
Posts: 12 Joined: February 19 2006	But if they'd never use a single division for any given task, then why not have a single fleet containing multiple task forces? Why have all these individual battle groups, each with their own independent (relatively) chain of command? Why risk interdepartmental strife between hundreds, perhaps thousands of fleet captains/admirals/whatevers and their attendant units? Haven't you guys generated a good deal of fluff covering the increasing centralization of command? Why proceed to do the exact opposite in practice? Certainly these might form the smallest regular detachments from a main fleet, but strategically they would be an organizational nightmare if they represent individual fleet assets. Frankly, a centralized command structure would almost assuredly avoid having numerous small, largely independent units, instead delivering orders strategically to a sector fleet which would then delegate forces from it's pool of vessels for the tactical accomplishment of their strategic objectives. In short, why the uneeded independence? You say fast reaction times but the sheer beaurocratic morass it would create would more than counter the benefits of 'fast reaction units.' I simply can find no reason for small (once again, a relative term) units being independently deployed given the scale of the operations being undertaken. I hate to be a naysayer, but I just can't concurr with your strategic force design. Though perhaps my besotted state is causing me to overlook something. I'll take two asprin. Call me in the morning. Oh, my aching head...


The Casualty	#17 Posted on 25-02-2006 21:39
Posts: 47 Joined: December 29 2005	Given my experience with real life fleet structure, I'd like to offer some idea of exactly how things work in an actual, bluewater navy, and how it could be reflected upon an effective fleet like the HGN. Basically, the US Navy is divided into several fleets, each covering a different sector of the seas. One fleet covers the Southern Pacific, one covers the Indian Ocean, one covers the Atlantic, and so on. Some fleets are bigger than others, usually a fleet's numbers are decided by close calculation of area covered and strategic priority. However, the ships in a fleet are almost never strictly bound to that Area of Operations. Ships are often attached to what could be considered a division in the HGN, that is, carrier battlegroups, destroyer squadrons, etc. These forces travel pretty much wherever they are needed, and their overseeing body is whichever fleet controlls the sea they travel in. Thus, a carrier strike group can seamlessly go wherever it needs to in order to complete it's orders. Mobility in a fleet is essential. While centralization causes good strategic utilization and mobility allows for quick strikes, it is a compromise between both that allows a Navy to truly become both fearsome and ever-present. To me, these fleet divisions of the HGN could certainly be a realistic addition, but there's no way the whole navy could function as a series of divisions. It would cause a communications nightmare. Divisions would probably remain fluid and able to go wherever they are needed, but there should always be a larger fleet sector that they are working with. Edited by The Casualty on 25-02-2006 21:41


yasotay	#18 Posted on 26-02-2006 15:29
Posts: 637 Joined: September 09 2005	A good discussion Dei. I would say that while there is centralized command their would have to be DE-centralized control. Space is a very large place and three dimensional at that (some would argue more dimensions, but lets keep it simple... for me). As The Casualty demonstrates above when trying to cover considerable area you have to allow a certain amount of leeway to your subordinate commanders . Indeed I would add that on top those fleets mentioned there are Area Combatant Commands who are the senior miltary staff to the civil leadership. So like this [above] the Hiigaran Navy have several fleets (like the immortal 15th Fleet) that could be made of one or more divisions, with the divisions actually executing the missions for a given sector of space. The Admiral of the Hiigaran Navy is answerable to the Diiamid, the fleets are responsible to the Navy and the divisions answerable to the fleets. Then you get into the minutia of flotilla or task force or whatever name you given them conducting specific missions for the divisions. Off topic: for all of us who would never have thougth to see the day, I see that the Russian Navy is now regularly training with NATO for inclusion in some of the ongoing NATO operations... the world is a dynamic place.


The Casualty	#19 Posted on 26-02-2006 18:53
Posts: 47 Joined: December 29 2005	Joint exersizes are a fact of life in these times, yaostay. Training alongside foreign forces increases your ability to fight as an international coalition later. Fighting in the Persian Gulf are not only American vessels but Italian, Australian, and Bahrainian ships, and that's just off the top of my head. Not only that, but training using Russia as an agressor can give invaluable tactical knowledge to our commanders. Remember that the fleets of many countries are built using former Russian ships, or ships inspired by Russian technology. Iran and North Korea especially. Anyways, regarding PDS, you pretty much hit the nail on the head regarding Naval order of battle. Centralized at the top, mobile at the bottom. You've got your Supreme Command (diiamid) which is probably based on Hiigara; your Fleet Commands which are responsible for a given reach of space and whichever ships inhabit it; your Division Commands which are your striking forces, moving fluidly through space to wherever seen fit; and your Force Commands, small units such as frigate squadrons, carrier battle groups, and fighter groups, which are attached to the Divisions and deployed on missions as ordered by the division commanders. Diiamid -> Fleet -> Division -> Force -> Individual.


yasotay	#20 Posted on 27-02-2006 14:58
Posts: 637 Joined: September 09 2005	I just remember spending time in the Fulda Gap freezing my important parts waiting for the last battle. Very glad to see us cooperating so well these days.

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