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 Naval (Maritime) Warfare in the PDS universe
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| Ironwatsas |
Posted on 03-06-2007 18:58
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 Posts: 856 Joined: October 21 2005 |
If PDS space combat is to be considered a rough analog of modern naval warfare on Earth, that leaves me wondering what maritime warfare in the PDS universe would look like. It is always important to consider that with a Galaxy spanning military force, there's always going to be planets that are partially or completely covered with water. This provides an almost impenatrable defence against most orbit to surface weapons. Seafaring navies would be an essential asset to both the attacking and defending forces given the problems that ground, air, and space forces must face in such an environment. While ground forces would obviously have some hardware geared toward operating in over water, this is more geared toward such tasks as bridging rivers and fighting in swamplands of floodplains, not the kind of blue water tasking that would be required here. I can see these types naval forces operating as part of a planetary ground force (I.E. under the juristiction of the Hiigaran Marine Corps (or other races equivelent) as opposed to a (Space) Navy's command structure) and working closely with such. Regarding the order of battle; The two types of ships that would be the mainsday of a seafaring fleet are primarily Fast attack craft ranging from small RIBs to what would be on earth considered patrol boats (Similar to U.S. vietnam era PBR craft up to Tarantul-III sized craft) to LCAC type landing craft to larger craft designed to land helicopters or provide logistical and fire support (see: U.S. navy 'Sea Fighter' littoral combat ship). The second type of primary maritime craft would be of course Submarines. Ranging in size and function from tiny one man (or unmanned) fast attack/patrol 'fighter' submarines, which occupy a niche similar to spaceborne strikecraft, up to attack subs armed with hypervelocity supercavitating torpedoes and undersea laser or plasma weapons, to strategic missile submarines armed with all of the above plus a wide variety of guided missiles for use against land, sea, air, and space targets. Larger surface ships (bigger then a modern day frigate) would be simply too large and logistically challanging to be effectively transported between planets (as there are no spacecraft large enough to deliver them whole, and disassemballing and reassembelling them would take weeks) by an attacking force, however a defending force may have big ships built planetside and would undoubtedly use their size for whatever advantages it offers. However, given the pace of modern warfare, big ships would be limited to Aircraft Carriers, anti submarine warfare, heavy fire support, anti-orbital defence, and possibly mobile energy shield genorators. The latter would be a nessessity as large seagoing vessels would be highly vulnerable to orbital bombardment. So, now let's discuss and debate the finer details of PDSverse maritive warfare, shall we? |
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| Komo val |
Posted on 03-06-2007 19:59
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 Posts: 392 Joined: September 27 2006 |
This is a most interesting subject. I agree with your evaluation of the primary types of maritem craft. The small ships would not be main targets for orbital weapons even if they are detected, and I can imagine large submarines with high-yield energy weapons capable of striking orbital craft, or with surface-to-orbit missiles. Large ships, and even Aircraft carriers (as we know them) would be completly obsolete. They would be very vulnerable to orbital strikes. One thing that will greately influance marine warefare in the future is anti -gravity. Frigates, and even some capital sized ships (like in some concepts, or the transports in the cinematic at the end of mission one showing transprters picking up crew from Hiigara's surface) can navigate in atmosphere. They can efectivly replace larger surface ships, and even carriers since they'll be harder targets for orbital strikes, due to their speed and protection. Another way this can influance modern warefare is frigates acting as destroyers, hunting down submarines and attacking smaller surface ships. Aircraft would probably operate from atmospheric capable capital ships or submersible carriers (larger cousins of those japan used in WW2). Ofcourse these craft would be inadequate for interstellar transport and deployment, but an attacking force would probably first achive space superiority and they can deploy fighters and other strikecraft from orbit. The first wave of invaders would probably be small supercavitating submarines armed with supercavitatng torpedos to counter submerged threats. One other concept would be a hybrid between a submarine and a spaceship, capable of survivng both crushing deapths and vacum of space, thus eliminatng the need of transport, as this type of craft would ''transport itself''. |
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| Ironwatsas |
Posted on 03-06-2007 21:35
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Posts: 856 Joined: October 21 2005 |
Quote Large ships, and even Aircraft carriers (as we know them) would be completly obsolete. They would be very vulnerable to orbital strikes. For the most part yes. Larger ships may be commonly used by more primitive races' internal conflicts, but they're still meat for orbit-to-surface weapons. Even assuming that orbital strike isn't a serious issue, big surface ships are still easily outflanked and are generally not used for anything other then Aircraft carriers. Carriers would suffer the same drawbacks, however, their massive reactors and size would probably allow for the addition of shield genorators, giving them some second strike capability, though submersible craft are still perferred. Quote One thing that will greately influance marine warefare in the future is anti -gravity. Frigates, and even some capital sized ships (like in some concepts, or the transports in the cinematic at the end of mission one showing transprters picking up crew from Hiigara's surface) can navigate in atmosphere. They can efectivly replace larger surface ships, and even carriers since they'll be harder targets for orbital strikes, due to their speed and protection. Another way this can influance modern warefare is frigates acting as destroyers, hunting down submarines and attacking smaller surface ships. Anti-Gravity technology as is portrayed in Star Wars and whatnot is not commonly available nor feasable to any races other then the Bentusi, T-MAT, Kassi, and Progenitors. However, contemporary Capital and frigate sized ceaft can make planetfall by use of atmospheric airfoils, VTOL engines, and internal lighter-then-air gas cells. Examples include LiirHra, Bloodhound, and Resolution class(and it's derivitive) classes. A more simple alternitive to this are armored Zepplin type, consisting of a lightweight armored shell which contains most of the operating systems surrounding the gas cells. However in both cases, the power to lift ratio of anything large enough to launch and retrive aircraft would be too immense to be feasable, so there's no plausable way that an Imperitor or Prince of Hiigara class vessel could enter an atmosphere. There's also the issue of large spacecraft not being designed to handle the mind buffetting or G-Forces, and would be torn apart on entry. One exeption to this rule is the Caal-Shto, which has (according to watsas-fiction) been heavily modified and mutated so as to be able to survive and maintain stable flight in atmosphere, probably with the addition of Bentusi Anti-G technology. However, it must divert power from it's infection beams and primary batteries to do this. Quote Aircraft would probably operate from atmospheric capable capital ships or submersible carriers (larger cousins of those japan used in WW2). Ofcourse these craft would be inadequate for interstellar transport and deployment, but an attacking force would probably first achive space superiority and they can deploy fighters and other strikecraft from orbit. The first wave of invaders would probably be small supercavitating submarines armed with supercavitatng torpedos to counter submerged threats. Regarding aircraft, the latter is more likely as has been explained above. Submursible carriers would be tha mainsday of seafaring aviation and would also serve as a launch platform for 'fighter' submarines (small, supercavitating craft which can achive immense velocities and attack with underwater lasers and torpedoes) and infantry in RIBs. Aircraft coming in from orbit is more likely then an atmospheric carrier, though some types of aircraft would be unable to break orbit or fly in space, so these are usually launched from land bases. Quote One other concept would be a hybrid between a submarine and a spaceship, capable of survivng both crushing deapths and vacum of space, thus eliminatng the need of transport, as this type of craft would ''transport itself'' I'm pretty sure that the LiirHra class can already do this. It was described as "ocean launched planetary defence cruiser" so it is almost certian that it can at least land on water or possibly submerge and operate under it's own power. While most of the LH's guns would be nonfunctional in this role, it can be assumed that it's primary DEW batteries would still work, abeit at far less range and power due to the disappating effects of the water. It's missile tubes and railguns may possibly be refitted to fire torpedoes. However, you'd want to consult with LH class experts to know for sure. |
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| Mostly harmless |
Posted on 04-06-2007 00:40
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[118].jpg) Posts: 141 Joined: September 15 2005 |
With all the drag the Lh would be a very large and slow target. Can you imagine something that size trying to manoeuvre in atmosphere? |
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| prithvi19 |
Posted on 04-06-2007 02:15
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Posts: 59 Joined: November 28 2006 |
Lets consider a planet in a hotzone and not some backwater rock with infighting. Now a heavily contested planet would have a considerable presence around it in space and with the surface bombardment capabilities available I would think that would negate almost any surface installations or navy. As Ironwatas pointed out, any ship on the suface bigger than a frigate is basically toast and anything smaller possibly wouldn't be potent enough. Deepwater submarines are pretty much the only viable option. They probably would have missiles that could carry warheads into orbit or anywhere else on the planet. Smaller, unmanned escort submarines could provide point cover for the behemoth missile boats from torpedos and any other bothers. The fact is that with orbital strike capable ships in orbit, anything on the surface of a planet is toast. I honestly dont see how they could resist. Forcefields you say? Maybe. But for how long? No type of shielding can possibly hold up against a continuous barrage. It will buckle eventually. Maybe point defense systems like those found on the spaceships themselves? Even they can be overwhelmed and destroyed. The most either of these systems can do is buy time or divert the attention. The only way to survive is to hide underground or underwater, deep underwateer. Thing is though that even if a ship is underwater hiding, as soon as it fires its position and possible course could be calculated. Game over. As technology advances, stealth and surprise are the key. Nothing can stand up to the sheer destructive power of most of the weapons potrayed. I honestly cant see how any type of ground force can possibly stand up to a space fleet. Feel free to enlighten me. Plus, the fleet in orbit has the height advantage  .
Failure is not an option. It's bundled with your software.
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| Elukka |
Posted on 04-06-2007 10:46
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Posts: 103 Joined: February 13 2006 |
The fleet in orbit will probably be locked in combat with another fleet, if they haven't been taken care of already. That would make it kind of hard to do orbital bombardment. |
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| Mostly harmless |
Posted on 04-06-2007 14:10
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Posts: 141 Joined: September 15 2005 |
I don't think risking atmospheric entry is likely unless you have some kind of space superiority. Vessels re-entering would be painfully exposed. |
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| Komo val |
Posted on 04-06-2007 20:11
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Posts: 392 Joined: September 27 2006 |
Quote The fleet in orbit will probably be locked in combat with another fleet, if they haven't been taken care of already. That would make it kind of hard to do orbital bombardment. Space superiority is paramount if an invasion, or any surface operation (except black ops. operations) are to be conducted. Even if a surface fleet is suplementing the orbital defense fleet, the said orbital fleet can be taken out from long range before the surface weapons can engage them, and once the orbital fleet is destroyed no arge military object will be left standing (maybe if it's heavilly shilded, but such generators would need a large power supply, much lager than any ship can offer). Quote A more simple alternitive to this are armored Zepplin type Well Zepplins would be painfully slow and there are transport isues. Friget sized ships transport itself, but you would need large transports to transport Zepplins. As a defensive options they would also be rather easy targets. As vtol technology can be only more advanced than it is today, a strikecraft would require much less space to take off and land. For atmospheric carriers I ment frigate sized ships, or a heavilly modified Liir-Hra cruisers. A modified Taiidani Heeshk class support frigate would, at least for me, be a perfect example of an atmospheric carrier Quote I'm pretty sure that the LiirHra class can already do this. Wow I wasn't aware of that. It would me most interesting to have a sea combat doctrines regarding modified Liir-hras (a special ''Pelican'' variant maybe) Quote With all the drag the Lh would be a very large and slow target. Can you imagine something that size trying to manoeuvre in atmosphere? Well Lhs are very aerodynamicle bastards, and they have amazing trust capacity, so it should be able to achive decent speeds in atmosphere. Manuvering would be a little more difficult, but I think it should be able to preform some basic manuversing with relative ease. High- G anuvering is a definitive no-no. One thing that should be further explored is the dropship and troop deployment capability of the star nations in the Homeworld univrse. This would help us to make a plausible sea invasion doctrine. Also how deep can weapons fired from orbit go (energy weapons and missiles- hmmm torpedo carrying missiles anyone) |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 05-06-2007 02:01
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 Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Well yasotay and I were working on planetary assault doctrines and weapons a long while ago (like, 2 years). And yes early build LHs were designed for submarine launch to orbit from deep ocean bases to escape Vaygr orbital bombardment. That's why they had little more than main and secondary beam weapons, and the VLS arrays. Today, space and atmospheric variants are totally separate though the deep-space cruisers could probably survive intact an emergency re-entry (given identical basic hull, jettisoning its spaceborne payload and considering no hull damage). Dual-role space/air ships tend to be very impractical given the diversity of engineering requirements for both operating environments. Consider that making an aircraft carrier capable requires stronger structure, landing gear and foldable wings, which reduces its payload. Apply that to the problem of a ship having to be combat effective in both air and space, and attain hypersonic speeds in entry/re-entry maneuvers. I would say that I prefer using heavy spacelift ships to transport large amounts of specialized dropships and air superiority craft, than to spend the same amount of $ on a ship that can't match its combat performance to tonnage in either operating environment. |
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| Komo val |
Posted on 05-06-2007 19:37
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Posts: 392 Joined: September 27 2006 |
How much equipment can those heavy spacelift ships carry, and how big they are ?? I think that's the main isue. If you could carry a submersible carrier in those you wouldn't need any type of atmospheric carriers. Besides a carrier could deploy drones in the same way as a missile. They would have GPS and flotation devices, so when they run out of fuel they just land in the sea and await a recovery vessel to pick them up. |
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| Ironwatsas |
Posted on 05-06-2007 23:53
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Posts: 856 Joined: October 21 2005 |
I highly doubt that even a LiirHra or something with similar capacity could carry a full size attack sub intact. Modular disassembelley and storage would be the only way to move anything larger then a midget sub or missile patrol boat. The undersea 'first strike' would likely be undertaken by small, one man or unmanned supercavitating 'fighter' submarines which would attempt to destroy undersea anti-orbital weapons or submersable aircraft carriers. By that time, larger Subs could have been assembelled and would take the fight to the enemy's undersea bases, submarine fleets, and harbor facilities, with fighter and midget submarines acting as raiders or support assets similar to their space based counterparts. |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 06-06-2007 08:59
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
I believe that the type of assets carried by an invasion spacelift unit should be simple and to the point. That means maximal bang for the buck. Specialist nautical warships would not be called for unless the operation in question demanded sea dominance. This raises a question - how many populated worlds in the galaxy would have stable water bodies in the first place? As opposed to sulfuric acid or magma. Space dominance is the key to everything, so I believe space to space and space to surface capability would be the first priority of any attacking fleet. Lugging along a full-sized sea-warship on a spacelift asset is pointless if you haven't neutralized the enemy's orbital or surface to air defenses. In this I would think that for a relatively low level of sci-fi complexity that PDS thrives on, ballistic drop pods may be the most practical way to get men and materiel on the ground in the fastest and least hazardous (yeah right) possible. This would in turn point to the Starship Troopers book (-not- the movie). Original concepts usually turn out for the better. Overly complex anime-type war machines can stay in your dreams in this universe. That can include powered-armour too, you know. Okay, what is a practical size of an interstellar invasion ship? Something big and multi-mission capable definitely is desirable, as it'll be more efficient than trying to coordinate a fleet of smaller, shorter-ranged 'interstellar capable boats'. Thus a spaceborne version of a present-day Wasp LHD, able to project its own limited strike capability followed by dropships, assault pods or whatever. The idea is for a capable allied deep space force to sieze control of the target planet's space then neutralize whatever orbital defenses they have. Electronics and informational dominance too will be key in order to maintain the strategic initiative (ref. 1991 Desert Storm) and prevent the enemy from reacting to ownside's moves. Anything that looks like a military target will be earmarked for orbital bombardment - no sense actually having atmospheric capable capital ships for the time being and said bombardments can be used as a cover to insert special forces onto the planet. You can see that if you have human intelligence assets on the planet itself, the attacking force can easily attempt an overwhelming first strike on critical infrastructure even before it finishes with the enemy spaceborne defenses - that's the wonder of Newtonian physics and the vastness of space, that the attacking party usually wins. Even if the bombarding ships were destroyed, you might have several thousand projectiles headed for the planet. But space to orbit targeting in such long-ranged ballistic strikes may be problematic given the timeframe and general lack of terrain data (even then you'd want the planet's infrastructure and/or ecology intact for exploitation purposes). Once you dealt with air and space defenses you can talk about physical invasion, and this is where low observable, subterranean, and submersible units come into play. Through high-tech guerilla warfare the defending planet can inflict enough losses on the ground and air forces that it'll become a Stalingrad for the attackers... and if the landing force were silly enough to try something like capital ship sized dropships, nailing even one would be a major victory. A 1 million future-dollar hypervelocity missile causing a fatal hull breach in a 10 trillion future-dollar flying aircraft carrier will bring it down. -truncated for further discussion- EDIT: In other words, prithvi19 is correct. You, Iron, should base your views on real-world concepts like he does. For instance, stratospheric airships as sensor platforms and aerospace security measures definitely holds merit. Using them as effective combat assets? Besides serving as a long-term base for air to space interceptor missiles? I think I'd rather put the missile base in space. Edited by TelQuessir on 06-06-2007 09:17 |
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| Komo val |
Posted on 06-06-2007 09:58
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Posts: 392 Joined: September 27 2006 |
Quote This raises a question - how many populated worlds in the galaxy would have stable water bodies in the first place? As opposed to sulfuric acid or magma. Well quite a few actually, most of earth like planets would probably have as much water as Earth does. Planets with sulfuric acid pools, or magma pools would have such a poisones atmosphere that nothing, exept maybe bacteria could live there. Thus only small instalations of advance races could exist there. Quote A 1 million future-dollar hypervelocity missile causing a fatal hull breach in a 10 trillion future-dollar flying aircraft carrier will bring it down. True, but the missile must first hit. This would would mean than modern day equipment is also useless. why build a multi bilion dollar Nimitz aircraft carrier whan it can be destroyed by a 300 000 dolar supercavitating torpedo. Why build Apache gunships when a well placed missile could take it down. Quote You, Iron, should base your views on real-world concepts like he does. Supercavitation is a real-world concept. Besides limiting yourself to real- world concepts in a world technologically vastly supperior to our own would be a mistake. Real-world warfare should provide the basis, a basis which can be expanded. |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 06-06-2007 16:42
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Indeed, however we should spare ourselves the chore of fighting against proposals for armoured Zeppelins. Keep them in Crimson Skies. Still, I wouldn't have thought of our modern surveillance airships and US Navy solar-powered concepts without the idea of military zeppelins. Hitting a hypersonic target from the ground with a kinetic interceptor has been possible since the advent of the F-15's ASAT missile, which was created in the 70s? Today we tackle the problem of intercepting ballistic missiles with both interceptors and lasers. A starship's re-entry path is a very predictable one and the sheer speed in which it does the maneuver is a double-edged sword. A sci fi optronic or better fire control computer and missile guidance systems would have no trouble steering a projectile into the path of such a huge, relatively straight flying object. No hull can withstand a Mach 20 impact from either missile warhead fragments or a kinetic interceptor. Remember it is probably at the edge of its thermal survivability too, and the larger the ship being targeted, the more attention it is going to attract. Hence the expansion of the LHD concept, that it's a bulk carrier for smaller, less vulnerable atmosphere strike and landing craft. Remember too that orbital defense missiles would be the least of your worry - I won't want to imagine the possibility of strategic-defense railguns and particle beams ala Star Wars concepts brought to sci fi reality. Better to do it Desert Storm style. All these defenses won't be part of the equation if you crippled the command infrastructure controlling them. Then yes, you can land your huge divisional transport ship without fear of it being blown out of the sky, Battletech style. Anything is possible I think. Justification on a community-wide scale is the issue here. So do continue, the subject in question is too interesting to give up. |
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| Mkvenner |
Posted on 10-06-2007 01:41
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 Posts: 13 Joined: September 11 2005 |
In Starfist, a series I've been reading, the "Amphibious Assault Carriers" which are pretty much troopships, launch dropships, called Essays, and those do a high speed landing straight down through the atmosphere, and then slow down and land on the water, then they release air cushioned assault craft, and then enter the combat zone the traditional way, over the beach :beer:
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| Tristan |
Posted on 10-06-2007 03:41
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Posts: 304 Joined: June 28 2006 |
Is there a way to code fast-tracking missiles to intercept torpedoes/warheads? A brilliant idea for a support frigate would be one that launches intercepter missiles that prioritize enemy munitions. I imagine it'd also be quite hard to do. |
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| yasotay |
Posted on 10-06-2007 05:52
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 Posts: 637 Joined: September 09 2005 |
"Space dominance is the key to everything" Owning the high ground will always be key. The only time one would conduct an assault is to save a friendly population that has been taken over. If you control the space around a planet (just like a medieval castle) it will not be sequestered from the rest of its nation. If there is an overwhelming need for some capability or resource on the planet itself a few very large boulders dropped from space ought to change someones mind. If for some peculiar reason you have to not smash a city or two to make your point, then you have to start with surgical strikes, followed by a beachhead secured from counter-attack by overwhelming firepower (smaller but equally effective rocks will do). Of course there is also the seed the atmosphere with biologically toxic pathogens and patiently wait for resistance to die method. Then glide down, plant the flag and declare victory. Of course this would require you to then import all of the workers to run the desired machinery. There are so many ways to make life on the surface unbearable and unless the population believes that there is hope of the siege being broken, I think they will put out the new flags and try to go on with life as best they can. |
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| Mkvenner |
Posted on 10-06-2007 05:56
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Posts: 13 Joined: September 11 2005 |
Quote Tristan wrote: Is there a way to code fast-tracking missiles to intercept torpedoes/warheads? A brilliant idea for a support frigate would be one that launches intercepter missiles that prioritize enemy munitions. I imagine it'd also be quite hard to do. Don't some vessels already carry those? I guess it would be cool to see an Aegis Cruiser type frigate
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 10-06-2007 17:00
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
We do have countermissiles... but those fell out of favour due to HW2's crappy missile targeting protocols and the nature of the PDS close in battlespace. I -can- modify the existing battlespace to give greater priority to countermissile employment, so that is my new focus now that you've brought it up. By increasing missile firepower and survivability and cutting down launch rates and missile speed, I can give a more pronounced role to both countermissile rockets and standard missiles. But then, when the one missile that gets through your defenses do hit, be prepared for hell. Missiles in future V11 versions will thus be relatively slow moving but very powerful weapons able to decisively demolish enemy formations in the opening attack. Then as the ranges close, direct-fire systems take over in deciding the battle. You might want to designate a fast cruiser or two to bait enemy missile fire then run out of the kill zone... while you hammer the enemy task force with your missile ships without fear of mutual annihilation. Fun eh? I won't get the idea if it were not brought up. My thanks! |
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| Mkvenner |
Posted on 10-06-2007 19:59
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Posts: 13 Joined: September 11 2005 |
Just like The Shiva Option 
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