Discussion Forum: Electronic Warfare Drones

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Electronic Warfare Drones
Warman1	#1 Posted on 14-09-2005 04:46
Posts: 146 Joined: September 08 2005	I was rereading a Tom Clancy book a while ago and saw a tactic that could be useful for PDS. In the book the Russians wanted to attack and destroy the US and one of the tactics they used to help an assault on a US Carrier Group was to have drones come from one direction that used electronic warfare to send back a radar image to the Carrier Group of a swarm of bombers, while the fighters went to engage the incomming "bombers" the real bombers came from the other side of the Carrier Group and managed to deal a crushing blow against it (actually injured the carrier I believe along with destroying a few other ships). This same concept is also used many times in the Honor Harrington book series. So I was thinking why couldn't the Hiigarans or the Vaygr do something similar, becuase I figure if they put soo much research into making ships not be seen points to the thread about the Stealth Fighter surely they learned along the way things that could make the enemy systems think they see the ships. One way I figure this could be done if you wanted to bring a fake battlecruiser into the field is that you could have them make a "shell ship". Basically a hull that looks the same and some engines (possibly a hyperdrive too). It could have "holographic weapons" basically copies of the real weapons that deal no damage (or if that cant be done then just as little as possible) to make them seem real. Another way that could be done is that you have a probe, and this probe has a subsystem on it that sort of brings back the old days of PDS where there were soo many subsystems you couldn't select the ship itself by clicking on it because you would instead click a subsystem. For building the shells (or holograms) it would probably would be easier if the probe access to the build menu and each of the windows has a copy of a ship in it but each is actually a subsystem not a real ship, this way you wouldn't have to have too many copies of the probe filling up your build menu, just one probe and a list of buildable shells (or holograms). Basically you have a probe with a subsystem of whatever ship you want to fake and the subsystem completely surrounds the ship (it would sort of be like the hologram thing since it wouldn't be real and the probe is just an EW probe) so that when you click the ship/subsystem it gives you the subsystems name which is the same as whatever ship it is copying. Once again you could do the holographic weapons thing to make them seem real. Also the shell's or holograms (whichever you use) would have a low health because they are either destabalized from the shots (holograms) or they are just torn to peices by the weapons (shell hull) because the hull wasn't made to actually take serious damage. These things could either be used like in the TC book where you make the other guys think that there is a force comming from the right while you actually come from the left, or it could be used to make it seem like your force of ships is larger then it really is (Ie instead of 4 frigates you have 8). Thoughts?


ShibbyAv	#2 Posted on 14-09-2005 05:50
Posts: 11 Joined: September 02 2005	If my memory serves me correctly there were things like this in Cataclysm. Mimic ships I think they were called, they were fun to play with. Anyway I think that this concept in the able hands of PDS could make for very interesting gameplay styles down the road....(if implemented ofc)


TelQuessir	#3 Posted on 14-09-2005 09:05
Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005	If you want to implement these - do that in fiction and not in-game. Even in fiction - consider that such measures are of limited effectiveness in RL situations. You never rely on deception alone. Force multiplier, not magical item to put enemy forces in disarray. Holograms - what good does mimicking a ship do? It's the radar cross section and emissions profile you want to simulate, not the visual appearance. I expect all future proposals to take such items into consideration. Edited by TelQuessir on 14-09-2005 09:05


Archangel	#4 Posted on 14-09-2005 20:56
Posts: 18 Joined: September 02 2005	Quote TelQuessir wrote: If you want to implement these - do that in fiction and not in-game. Even in fiction - consider that such measures are of limited effectiveness in RL situations. You never rely on deception alone. Force multiplier, not magical item to put enemy forces in disarray. Holograms - what good does mimicking a ship do? It's the radar cross section and emissions profile you want to simulate, not the visual appearance. I expect all future proposals to take such items into consideration. An ECM drone could simulate the radarreadings and other sensor profiles of a larger ship, simply to draw fire away from other vessels. Holographics are just there to make sure fighter craft and other vessels (as well as, on occasion, the crews of allied ships) will see their sensor readings confirmed.


Glacialis	#5 Posted on 14-09-2005 21:55
Posts: 368 Joined: September 02 2005	The second one bullet passes through, the jig is up. Considering that present sensors are advanced enough to detect all attempts at cloaking -- except for the very latest ones, which are rare -- it would seem immeasurably more difficult to fool them with false readings specifically meant to imitate other ships. Now, that's with military-grade sensors. If we're talking merchant vessels with little to no escort, it may be possible to cause a strategic change in deployments. Heavier escorts or a recon taskforce to investigate. That's the only change I could envision. I would also point out that the current ECM/jamming drones are already mightily effective.


TelQuessir	#6 Posted on 15-09-2005 00:30
Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005	Glacialis gives a good scenario to deploy deceptive countermeasures, and we can also draw inspiration from some well-known sci-fi writers. Where an enemy's supply of attack munitions (say, strategic bombardment missiles) is finite you can use decoys simulating warship emissions to reduce the number of said munitions headed towards your real units, and provide false intelligence to enemy surveillance. In a tactical battle where you have a highly automated "no IFF = shot at" situation, forget about it. There may be utility in creating a bogus reaction force out of decoys to at least provoke the enemy to react to it as though it were real, but in an actual life situation enemy reactions are unpredictable in any case. Not to mention that there is no such thing as 100% accurate intelligence. So employment of decoys requires both brains in planning for their deployment, and an enemy force that isn't commanded by 1s and 0s. Thus, the simulation of deceptive ECM is only really viable in fiction and even then I will expect an OPFOR in fiction to behave smarter than a computer game AI. And this is so much simpler, cheaper and more effective than trying to do something like this: Quote One way I figure this could be done if you wanted to bring a fake battlecruiser into the field is that you could have them make a "shell ship". Basically a hull that looks the same and some engines (possibly a hyperdrive too). It could have "holographic weapons" basically copies of the real weapons that deal no damage (or if that cant be done then just as little as possible) to make them seem real. Don't you think? Edited by TelQuessir on 15-09-2005 00:34


Cobalt Shiva	#7 Posted on 15-09-2005 11:08
Posts: 118 Joined: September 07 2005	Extrapolating from Tel's bogus reaction force- The best way to employ the proposed 'decoy drones', complete with fancy holographic cloaks, would be as strategic decoys. They could be used for the same kind of deception the Allies practiced prior to D-Day: providing the appearance of a large, concentrated force to the German's strategic reconnaissance and spies. Say a Vaygr scouting force probes system X and sees a heavy task force in the system. This'll affect Vaygr deployments in the region - but if that task force is made of decoys, that may work to the Hiigaaran's advantage. Think of them like the rubber tanks the Allies deployed in Britain. "This is tactical control..."


Glacialis	#8 Posted on 15-09-2005 13:22
Posts: 368 Joined: September 02 2005	RUBBER BATTLESHIPS! "Prince of Hiigara on collision course! He's going to ram us!" "Hard to port, all power to lateral gravitics!" "Too late!" boing Sorry. No breakfast yet.


Warman1	#9 Posted on 15-09-2005 19:27
Posts: 146 Joined: September 08 2005	Truthefully though I would think such a distraction could be usefull at least in the opening part of a battle against Vaygr at least. I mean if you send in a force from one direction against the enemy force that has a Titan of Fire the enemy would more then likely move the ship (if not their whole wall of battle) so that it doesn't take so long to point the main cannon of the ship in the direction of the enemy. This way when your ships come from the other direction they have more time to deal damage before the enemy can turn the ship to bear its deadly weapon. Edit: there are also many other ways i can think of for them to be useful, many of you i'm sure could find ideas that i hadn't even thought of yet. Just for little military fact here's a quote i believe Sun Tsu said, "All combat is based on deception." (if it wasn't him or the quote was not completely correct sorry). Edited by Warman1 on 15-09-2005 19:34


arghy	#10 Posted on 15-09-2005 20:46
Posts: 10 Joined: September 07 2005	What i could see is a high emission ship jamming the emissions from all ships under a certain size, you would detect it from a great distance but you wouldent be able to know if a full strike force was deployed with it or if it was alone. Would put a greater need for scouting rather then relying on sensors, whens the last time you sent a fighter to count the enemy.? I couldent really see a giant fake battle ship in HW2 you would need to mimic all the engine/weapons that the enemys sensors would pick up and use to identify the ships size and configuration(much like how our subs use engine noises to class other subs in the water) if the enemy just picked up engines and hyperspace they would think either a crippled ship our debris. The resource costs of this also comes to mind- if a fighter breaks through takes a shot at it and realizes its a fake? would have been better if you spent the time on acually makeing a BC or more ships.


TelQuessir	#11 Posted on 16-09-2005 00:15
Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005	Quote I mean if you send in a force from one direction against the enemy force that has a Titan of Fire the enemy would more then likely move the ship (if not their whole wall of battle) so that it doesn't take so long to point the main cannon of the ship in the direction of the enemy. "Who is that imbecile commanding that battleship? Space him. Do the same for the tactical director." Edited by TelQuessir on 16-09-2005 00:16


Warman1	#12 Posted on 16-09-2005 01:05
Posts: 146 Joined: September 08 2005	Ok...so you'd rather wait until the last second to point your ships at the enemy thereby giving them time to close rather then be able to pick them off quickly and at a distance? Besides most people wouldn't use the same tactic over and over again, so you could put a twist on it that would draw attention away from the real force which the enemy thought was a fake one. Example, you could have the forward ships of your wall be the EW drones which could make the enemy think that the force right there is in fact fake ships and then you have a few real frigates move in from another direction so that the enemy disregards the real force which has actual destroyers and whatnot. Also in defence of the side that is supposed to get shot up by this destraction if they did things correctly then they could throw the tactic right back at the enemy and have their real wall of battle over in the nearby cloud or just out of the estimated enemy sensor range either way this is usefull. If your ships are being shot up back at the mothership/shipyard then it could be possible to send a small real/fake ship squadron to attack the enemies mothership/shipyard therefor making them need to send back at least a chunk of their forces to deal with your ships buying you at least a little time. Edited by Warman1 on 16-09-2005 01:07


Unkn0wn	#13 Posted on 16-09-2005 08:51
Posts: 29 Joined: September 08 2005	No, you wait until scout forces verify the veracity and makeup of the threat and the integrity of the surrounding space. Then you decide which way to point your battleship. 0wn3d b0n3d unkn0wn3d


TelQuessir	#14 Posted on 17-09-2005 04:09
Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005	Then it'll be a decision whether to maneuver pre-emptively, or to wait for recon to send back details. If your FTL sensors detect Hiigaran quantum transit emissions close off the port bow then of course, don't wait. For decentralised operations where you don't have a Red v Blue situation however, such instaneous Cold War reactions don't apply at all and waiting for a situation to develop before reacting is a wise thing to do.


Phoenix	#15 Posted on 17-09-2005 20:43
Posts: 27 Joined: September 09 2005	Heres an idea, use a grav well generator to simulate the mass profile of a ship, a big one, like a supermonitor, and attatch a generator to simulate the electronics profile of the same ship, and then a holo generator if you wish to fool any scout fighters, but of course it wont take long to find out what it is, but a few of these can simulate the presense of a much more expensive task forse on long range sensors, which could alter the enemies tactical decision making in your favor, causing them to briefly comit forces elsewhere. such a drone would be expensive, so a cloak would be nice, and hyperdrive, so it can vanish and leave when the enemy comes to take out the supermonitor, so they might not even get close enough to use short range sensors to find ou what it is, they just see it vanish, and then see a hyperspace window on thier LRS, like it turned and ran.


Unkn0wn	#16 Posted on 17-09-2005 21:40
Posts: 29 Joined: September 08 2005	It would also have the advantage of confusing missile guidance systems. Which reminds me, what sort of guidance do the missiles in PDS use? Is it some sort of RADAR or optical or even IR? [QUOTE]If your FTL sensors detect Hiigaran quantum transit emissions close off the port bow then of course, don't wait.[/QUOTE] I try to have something inhibitor capable escorting any Veygr capitals to stop exactly that sort of thing from happening. OFFTOPIC - The book referred to in the first post of this thread is "Red Storm Rising" by Tom Clancy, and is a very good cold war era war story that I would recommend to anyone here. Edited by Unkn0wn on 17-09-2005 21:44 0wn3d b0n3d unkn0wn3d


Archangel	#17 Posted on 18-09-2005 14:16
Posts: 18 Joined: September 02 2005	I'd say missiles are ARM-type (anti-radiation missile), able to home in on a variety of radiation sources, from active sensors over IR to drive emissions.


Glacialis	#18 Posted on 18-09-2005 14:47
Posts: 368 Joined: September 02 2005	Somewhat off-topic, what about HVF -- hyper-velocity flares? They may not be flares, but rapidly accelerated EW drones that are designed to lure missiles off-target and provide jamming. Man, I would love to see hordes of countermeasures deployed...sigh Don't think the engine (or most PCs!) could handle that.


TelQuessir	#19 Posted on 19-09-2005 00:44
Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005	Quote I try to have something inhibitor capable escorting any Veygr capitals to stop exactly that sort of thing from happening. Not in reality or even in PDS right now - that doesn't work at all in preventing someone from making a forced (assault) jump with overwhelming force. Unless you go into more detail than just expecting a single inhibitor system to magically stop all threats at a range you can react against safely.


MDD	#20 Posted on 26-09-2005 06:17
Posts: 32 Joined: September 26 2005	What if someone just added sensor disruption functionality to the scout strikecraft? Something like what the drone of the same name does now, but it has the ability to relocate. Seems to me that it wouldn't require much effort and it would sort of fit the bill. Edited by MDD on 26-09-2005 06:18

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