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 5G Weapons Technology Thread
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 30-11-2005 01:11
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 Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
MSN discussion with Inert, AAR Key points: We should explore options for DEWs with an effective range rivalling that of and exceeding that of railguns, which can be fired on enemy ships only if they are close enough that your muzzle velocity can allow a good chance of a hit against evasive actions. Or else, missiles in NGCS will be the main source of offensive firepower in ranged engagements. A simple laser weapon system will outrange any existing weapon technology and a muzzle velocity of the speed of light makes fire control easy. The thing here to consider is the beam and power generation assets... but with 15 inch calibre railguns hurling shells at up to 20km/s velocity, a laser chained to a nuclear reactor's output is dead simple. As for effective range - well, if you can detect it, you can fire a laser at it - damage potential depends on the amount of power behind the weapon, and the power the beam generator can handle. The more powerful it is, the more potentially large the generator is. Maybe that's why they aren't widely employed - probably large and fragile? Hulls like the Crusader frigate however, can take a big anti-ship laser perfectly and chain it directly to the main engines. Conclusion to topic 1: Vagyr in NGCS will have anti-ship lasers operational. Topic 2 covers the weaponisation of the hyperspace based defensive weapon technology. Basically, a single capital ship with a huge version of a HDS can function as a all-purpose task force defense ship like an Aegis cruiser today, intercepting enemy fire and destroying anything that violates its perimeter (how do you call airspace in space?). The Hiigarans might have something like this in future. It will also preclude the need to put HDS on every ship... but the issue here would be overcentralisation. I could possibly have the EHDS (enhanced hyperspace defense system) on a fleet support station or supercarrier and have the action revolve around it and losing the EHDS means you have to withdraw... Conclusion to Topic 2: We can move the Aegis cruiser in space concept to the next, sci-fi level. Edited by TelQuessir on 30-11-2005 01:12 |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 30-11-2005 01:14
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Topic 2 reminds me of some situations in Master of Orion - one simple tech level increase can secure a huge advantage over the opposition until countered. |
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| Itharu |
Posted on 30-11-2005 01:25
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 Posts: 363 Joined: September 23 2005 |
Speaking of MOO, I recently took up playing MOO2. Yes it is quite true that Missiles become in-effective once your foe employs the lightning defense and point defense weapons on their ships. Even the planetary missile base becomes useless in time. Maybe perhaps the Aegis should transend a typical longrange, 'boat' design and move to a more close, in-your-face firing all missiles, concept. As for long range laser weapons, they can be viable depending on the systems backing it. You can employ a high power output and wide beam, but you have to consider at what point do you just simply begin to heat up your enemy's hull? I would opt to keep the beam narrow and focused and using an array of seval linked together. Nothing says your in big trouble as your enemy attemps to cut your hull into seveal pieces, or focus his fire to bore a hole in your reactor. -Fear the Might of the Imperial Cortharian Fleet
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 30-11-2005 03:56
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Topic 3: Requirement of Terminal Attack Munitions (TAMs) on railgun weapon systems for bombardment missions from discussion with Apocalypse7k Railguns have a spectacular muzzle velocity in excess of 20km/s, however in the vast expanse of space when firing at extended ranges, this speed is miniscule. Thus, against a maneuvering target, a railgun either needs to have a high rate of fire, or short range to target to successfully engage it. Therefore, deploying a missile system from a railgun shell is a decidedly worthwhile prospect that combines the maneuverability and firepower of a nuclear missile with the removal of the need for said missile to expend fuel in an acceleration burn to its target. The Terminal Attack Munition project is aimed at expanding the capabilities fielded by bombardment ships such that they may engage successfully enemy warships at exo-orbital and even interplanetary ranges with refined versions of the TAM system. If deployed, warships' with railgun armaments will carry a mixture of conventional metallic slug and TAM ammunition - the metal slug causes excellent damage to all targets at close range while the terminal homing capability of the TAM comes into play for ranged engagements or for precision attack taskings. Edited by TelQuessir on 30-11-2005 03:58 |
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| Itharu |
Posted on 30-11-2005 05:40
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Posts: 363 Joined: September 23 2005 |
Is it possible to take an additional explorational step in to considering low calabur, high velocity, explosive rounds? A railgun munition that when closing a distance to an enemy ship at about the speed of ~45km/s it shatters into smaller fragments covering a broad area, something along the lines of an anti-capital ship flack cannon. Not saying this should take precidence over the TAM system but a secondary addition if not alternative route.
-Fear the Might of the Imperial Cortharian Fleet
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 30-11-2005 06:38
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
That would be nice for an anti missile round - similar to AHEAD concept implemented, albeit invisibly for our RG45s. |
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| MarieHawke |
Posted on 30-11-2005 06:41
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 Posts: 501 Joined: September 02 2005 |
Umm, I already submitted the idea using this http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER...ennium.htm as a base. Look somewhere over the forums, and I really hate the term "flak". Do say proximity detonation, or flechette, or burst rounds.
A starlight sharpshot magical girl!
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| Glacialis |
Posted on 30-11-2005 15:07
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 Posts: 368 Joined: September 02 2005 |
Re: TAM HVRs sound perfect for this. True, they would have to contend with point defense systems as any other kinetic round would, but their fantastic velocity (railgun plus specialized HVR!) would greatly assist penetration of the defensive perimeter. Due to their size, each shell would probably only contain a single HVRs -- unless a much larger shell was launched containing up to three HVRs. HVM/MRAM2ECs on the other hand, also sound usable. However their targets are typically quite maneuverable, and unless those targets are in, say, a 60 degree cone centered on the shell's vector, it's unlikely that even the markedly capable interception missiles could move fast enough to effectively intercept the targets before they move out of range. Multiple Both of these concepts would enable variable railgun ammunition, and allow for ranged support of friendly strikecraft against a wide variety of conditions. Perhaps not as effective as smashing the target with a 20km/s ultradense shaped penetrator, but as the range grows other solutions must be found. Increasing the muzzle velocity of standard railgun rounds is of course an admirable course of research, but in the meantime TAMs sound eminently useful. On a possibly silly note, would it be possible to have a large torpedo fire a railgun round? Sort of a reverse of the TAM concept, but railguns still hurt. An linear accelerator on a stick. Edited by Glacialis on 30-11-2005 15:09 |
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| Cobalt Shiva |
Posted on 30-11-2005 17:19
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 Posts: 118 Joined: September 07 2005 |
Particle beams (ion cannons) provide an excellent balance between the short-range power of a railgun, the long-range, high-accuracy capability of a laser, and the guided attributes of a missile. They have a long firing period, high-relativistic speeds (difficult to dodge), and don't lose any power over distance (unlike a laser, which must obey the inverse-square law.) (No sources as of now - have to check my facts.) "This is tactical control..."
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| Glacialis |
Posted on 30-11-2005 17:44
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Posts: 368 Joined: September 02 2005 |
Railguns are quite long range, it's the aiming issues due to not-fast-enoguh munition velocity. If the target isn't moving...kthxbye. As for the particle beam/cannon: I concur, except for the part about not losing power. The magnetic field holding the beam together can only go so far. However, it seems to me that the range for a particle cannon would be greater than that of an ICA due to the lesser energies involved. Could this be the resurgence of traditional particle weaponry as the bruiser of choice for medium-range engagements? |
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| Itharu |
Posted on 30-11-2005 21:50
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Posts: 363 Joined: September 23 2005 |
So...... on the TAM thing, looks like we're trying to develop a Harpoon class Missile without the whole heavy drive assembly on it, but a limited trajectory corrections drive. (ie penitrate, then explode) But should such a weapon be without a downside to it? I cannot see it being overly manuverable and completley unintercetible, that just wouldn't be fair!
-Fear the Might of the Imperial Cortharian Fleet
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 30-11-2005 22:44
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Well the issue with using TAMs is like firing Copperhead laser guided rounds from artillery. They are expensive munitions and only a few fire missions (requiring extreme precision or against a moving target) will make good use of the guided shells. TAMs can also be thrown off by getting rid of its datalink to the mothership (no guidance update) and flying out of the TAM's sensor range. Thus, there is more reference to submarine warfare - note also that to be fully practical a TAM needs to have a programmable guidance system and seeker head... much like a Mark 48 ADCAP torpedo. The sole benefit of the TAM is this - a railgun in the far future may be able to deliver a payload to the Moon in one hour flat. To destroy some hypothetical terrorist base on the Moon from Earth, simply get a fast scout ship to relay target coordinates to a battleship in LEO (low earth orbit), which deploys a salvo of TAMs from its primary batteries on the correct orbital intercept solution. Scout ship relays targeting updates, does damage assessment, or both. Better than sending the BB out to the Moon itself and has more flexibility than solid railgun shells - what if the target were on the far side of the moon? Simply program the TAM to shoot past to the farside and do a retrograde burn to decelerate. It is after all, a capital grade attack missile in a superconductive sheath, suitably hardened to withstand the acceleration of a weapon grade railgun and provided with facilities for multiple ignitions of its drive. |
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| MarieHawke |
Posted on 01-12-2005 02:44
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Posts: 501 Joined: September 02 2005 |
That last situation reminded me of using scoutplanes to fire over the horizon. Maybe TAMs could be used in a toss-style, kinda - fire, using last known data, leave data field flying dumb, then enter into the data field of the scouting probe, which guides it for the last minute or so.
A starlight sharpshot magical girl!
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 01-12-2005 05:22
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
Mmhmm, and evading the TAMs are a matter of jamming the enemy datalinks and getting out of the detection range of the TAM sensors. Submarine stuff. |
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| HappySacks |
Posted on 02-12-2005 15:16
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 Posts: 56 Joined: October 24 2005 |
You could use ASCA marines to 'designate' the target with a kind of laser\radar painter, covertly calling in fire missions while the supporting ship is well out of sensor range. Could probably deliver personnel with a big enough launch tube and adapted vehicle as well. Probably easy to detect though due to size though but could explore possibility of using some kind of stealth technology.. would make for interesting roleplay. Edited by HappySacks on 02-12-2005 15:25 [i]"O Maker, help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, help us to lay waste their humble homes with a rain of fire; help us to wring the hea
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| Itharu |
Posted on 02-12-2005 22:15
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Posts: 363 Joined: September 23 2005 |
Quote HappySacks wrote: Could probably deliver personnel with a big enough launch tube and adapted vehicle as well. Probably easy to detect though due to size though but could explore possibility of using some kind of stealth technology.. would make for interesting roleplay. I can see it now.... *Aboard a cruiser in the thick of battle* Bridge officer: "Oh captain, another blasted TAM is headed stright for us and I don't believe we can dodge it this time" Captain : "Oh nuts. Well that new hull paint job is now classified a total waste of time. Could everyone please brace for impact and hull breach." A large thump sound as the TAM breaches the hull. Engineer: "Um captian, I'm at the location where that bloody TAM breached the hull. Good lord, people are coming out of it. Ugly chaps too." Captian : "PEOPLE?! Well, I would have never expected that." -Fear the Might of the Imperial Cortharian Fleet
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| MarieHawke |
Posted on 03-12-2005 01:13
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Posts: 501 Joined: September 02 2005 |
Have fun, Marines, when you are launched. And also when you hit the target.
A starlight sharpshot magical girl!
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| HappySacks |
Posted on 03-12-2005 12:30
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Posts: 56 Joined: October 24 2005 |
I wasn't actually considering 'hitting' a target with an Magnetically Launched Personnel Delivery round. This would be used by covert operatives to travel somewhere discretely. They could be picked up by a waiting ship or perhaps the MLPD could have some limited thruster capability. Some dampening would be required so pervent the crew turning to jelly upon launch. I don't expect any of this actually 'in game', I just think it might be cool to use it in roleplay. Edited by HappySacks on 03-12-2005 12:35 [i]"O Maker, help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, help us to lay waste their humble homes with a rain of fire; help us to wring the hea
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| DarkShaman |
Posted on 04-12-2005 16:02
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Posts: 21 Joined: October 08 2005 |
Something like that was used by the religious fanatics (Thebans) in David Weber's book "Crusade". The Thebans fired 'sleds'at enemy ships once they had taken down their shields. Sort of like Vayger boarding pods, but you frigate isn't sitting a few meters away from the enemy's ship.
Edited by DarkShaman on 04-12-2005 16:02 |
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| TelQuessir |
Posted on 05-12-2005 23:19
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Posts: 2598 Joined: August 30 2005 |
We are talking about weapon systems for capital scale space combat that will logically, require trans-orbital capability against actively maneuvering nuclear powered starships with unlimited mobility and the best offensive/defensive systems technology can produce. So forget about infantry sleds. These, and drop pods for "ground" unit insertion have their place in another topic. Start one and you'll get a more proper reception from me on the subject. |
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