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Ground Warfare in the PDS universe - Phase I Conclusion
Coolhand77
What he probably means is that "Light" weapons, or weapons that are lighter in weight, are not nessicarily ineffective. Look at the RPG-7. Its a LIGHT anti armor weapon, but when used properly does just as well as some guided weapons.

BTW, for a while there, the US military was trying to make the 20mm OICW (the 5.56mm part was for close in defense, when they were to close to the 20mm) standard issue, to replace the M203. Only reason they didn't adopt it is cause they couldn't get the weight down (plus there were some rumors about the fusing system causing it to go off in the barrel). They have replaced the XM29 dual weapons concept with two weapons. the XM8 (Replacement for your 5.56mm rifles) and the XM25, which is a semi automatic, multi shot, 25mm weapon. Funny thing, it uses the same ammo that is currently being tested in the XM109 Payload rifle. Given an environment where particle beam tanks, powered armor suits, and the like exist, I could see a canister or payload rifle being standard issue for softy troops, since it would be the only way they could probably compete with PA troopers (softies would have to pick thier shots while the PA troopers could just hose an area with 25mm munitions...maybe even the same type of cartridges in a full auto mechanism). Especially something like the XM25. The XM109 would be closer to the Designated marksman concept. Also, using HW2 Level technology, you could probably get the weight down to managable levels without killing your troops with excessive recoil.
Wash - "This is going to get pretty interesting"
Mal - "Define Interesting"
Wash - "Oh god, oh god, we're all going to die?"

Still flying!
 
TelQuessir
On suit weight - I think Inert's post here is more viable than 10 tons, which, I agree with Revan - its going to be the dead max for any walking vehicle. One infantryman isn't going to take up 10 tons unless its a huge walking tank (that will be decidedly vulnerable to just about anything heavier than small arms).

One ASCA (heavy "battle tank" suit loaded to the gills) thus would take up max 3-4 tons loaded would be a reasonable allowance. I think.

You can have a spaceborne power armour (note, NOT gundams, but specialist assault and close defense units) of 10 tons mass in space, but on land its going to be rather difficult at best to field due to aforementioned issue of ground pressure. Grav boosters need lots of power (main downside of all those 61th Century high-tech stuff) and there is a point of diminishing return as you make land walker units larger and larger.

There are limits to how far we can go in sci fi technology, as feedbacked to me via PM (thanks btw), but unless we actually live in a 61th century in life we can't easily discern what is practical and what is not - who knows, maybe in our 61st Century we're still stuck on land like today.

So - discussion helps to illustrate what is practical, and what is not. A lot. Carry on.

On the OICW and derivative projects - I think they'd have solved the premature detonation problems by now. From what declassified stuff I seen so far the upsized 25mm "personal cannons" are doing very well.

On Daniel-kun's Phase Shift observation - my source are those RL experimental projects - just happens that PS from Gundam operate in the same way Smile

Lighter suits will be operating on non-renewable power sources and thus will have an endurance limit, watch the power drain when operating energy weapons. Here's one reason to keep with very advanced yet comparatively simple slugthrowing weaponry.

Something like the HK-G11 will be nice for the light suits (note, these are like HALO's Mjolnir, augmented infantrymen) - and nothing is stopping you from putting infantry weapons on larger suits as "hull mounted" systems. A medium suit may want some capability to use "hand" mounted weaponry for emergency cases, but a heavy would be too large to support this unless the trooper inside dismounted.

Another good source of inspiration here is John Ringo's Legend of the Aldenata series - which featured very high tech (61st Century like even) Armoured Combat Suits.
Edited by TelQuessir on 01-11-2005 22:58
 
TelQuessir
Inert's post has been removed due to its unnecessarily confrontative nature.
Edited by TelQuessir on 01-11-2005 23:59
 
madcow305

Quote

DanielHawking wrote:
Armor plating might be used as a smaller version of today's 5G armor - electrically-charged ceramics, which is similar to a modern-day British project, where a ceramically-armored tank took a direct hit from an RPG and suffered little damage. You need to either:

A.) overload the armor with a rapid succession of blasts, therefore leaving it open to normal attack

B.) find a weak point, such as the head

C.) attack it with some sort of directed beam weapon.

Major reference from here is the Phase Shift Armor from the anime series Gundam SEED.


Does this mean there is a possibility that our mechs might sport some colors other than gunmetal? Smile

Btw, your sig is so funny. I can just imagine Tel sitting in his chair, looking all stern and "Chief-Developer"ish, then he goes "Poke". ROFL:shy::shy::bigrazz:
 
madcow305

Quote

TelQuessir wrote:
On suit weight - I think Inert's post here is more viable than 10 tons, which, I agree with Revan - its going to be the dead max for any walking vehicle. One infantryman isn't going to take up 10 tons unless its a huge walking tank (that will be decidedly vulnerable to just about anything heavier than small arms).

One ASCA (heavy "battle tank" suit loaded to the gills) thus would take up max 3-4 tons loaded would be a reasonable allowance. I think.

You can have a spaceborne power armour (note, NOT gundams, but specialist assault and close defense units) of 10 tons mass in space, but on land its going to be rather difficult at best to field due to aforementioned issue of ground pressure. Grav boosters need lots of power (main downside of all those 61th Century high-tech stuff) and there is a point of diminishing return as you make land walker units larger and larger.

There are limits to how far we can go in sci fi technology, as feedbacked to me via PM (thanks btw), but unless we actually live in a 61th century in life we can't easily discern what is practical and what is not - who knows, maybe in our 61st Century we're still stuck on land like today.

So - discussion helps to illustrate what is practical, and what is not. A lot. Carry on.

On the OICW and derivative projects - I think they'd have solved the premature detonation problems by now. From what declassified stuff I seen so far the upsized 25mm "personal cannons" are doing very well.

On Daniel-kun's Phase Shift observation - my source are those RL experimental projects - just happens that PS from Gundam operate in the same way Smile

Lighter suits will be operating on non-renewable power sources and thus will have an endurance limit, watch the power drain when operating energy weapons. Here's one reason to keep with very advanced yet comparatively simple slugthrowing weaponry.

Something like the HK-G11 will be nice for the light suits (note, these are like HALO's Mjolnir, augmented infantrymen) - and nothing is stopping you from putting infantry weapons on larger suits as "hull mounted" systems. A medium suit may want some capability to use "hand" mounted weaponry for emergency cases, but a heavy would be too large to support this unless the trooper inside dismounted.

Another good source of inspiration here is John Ringo's Legend of the Aldenata series - which featured very high tech (61st Century like even) Armoured Combat Suits.


I believe light infantry should use shoulder-mounted DEWs when assulating heavily armored units. These pulsar cannons would not be tied into the suit's main power supply, instead operating using one-shot "capsules" of compressed ions. The reason for relying on DEWs rather than missiles when attacking battle mechs is that a single missile would weigh much more than the energy capsule, and also be more easily intercepted by enemy countermeasures. There isn't much you can do against a beam of light aimed at your head.
 
TelQuessir
Interesting, that is one innovative use of present ICA and ICAP (new assault/pulse ion cannons) technology, which do not rely on plasma fed from a reactor.

The good thing about such a "disposable" DEW is of course the potential firepower, but maybe LAWs, RPGs and grenade launchers remain viable, cheap and effective weapon systems for close in AT ambushes for one reason - at close range the reaction time for a defending unit is very, very short.

Disposable DEWs would be nice for dual purpose anti mechanised and anti aircraft fire for reasons you stated - practically zero reaction time given to the enemy. This is countered by the cost/characteristics of the system (I would think you need to be suited up to fire the beam safely or you burn yourself badly) and of course, 61st Century ablative armour to some extent.

It is definately, something I'd much prefer to have than a LAW that is only effective out to 100m, if I were going mech hunting in a light/medium suit. Let's say I'm not lugging around a mediumweight antitank guided missile (ATGM) too.

Note that Tribes 2 (futuristic fps) is also another source of inspiration for power armour ops.

While the topic is still fresh, how about this conceptual LRRP squad in light/ultralight armour?

1x squad leader with extended comms, only medium suit on the team with self-contained power plant (good to recharge teammates with, can double as supplies carrier)
1x backup radioman with standard infantry weapon w/ grenade launcher

2x anti-mech sniper unit in standard light armour operating one 20mm anti-materiel rifle or 10mm railgun (externally powered, hypersonic muzzle velocity). Assistant carries half the weapon or power supply for railgun) and is armed with 1x standard infantry rifle (plasma or sci-fi G-11 type rifle, your choice)

4x scouts with light infantry weapons (SMG/PDW or carbine) and whatever advanced optics and surveillance sensors you can give them.

My concern here is how long the team can operate, which is why I have the squad leader in a medium suit with a external power generator that can be used to replenish the team's suits and be hooked up to the squad sniper's railgun in emergencies.

I think the mobility bestowed by a "enhanced infantryman" package would be worth the expense.

To eliminate this logistics requirement of power, go for foot infantry with "ultralight" augmentation packages like today's conceptual Land Warrior project.
Edited by TelQuessir on 02-11-2005 02:48
 
revan
Ah the Ringo series. Going to have to re-read that one.

A light suit sould be provided with a limited anti-armor capability. Say a one shot HVR at most. These thing will be meant for scouting and possibly quick strikes, not for duking it out with the big boys on the battlefield.
 
TelQuessir
Good call - a HVR, like Ringo's or Weber's will be a nice direct fire system (but not that fast in speed) capable of engaging and killing almost anything on the battlefield. Cheaper than that disposble particle beam cannon too.

So, here's one point for the light infantry folks.
 
Cromy
Ok well my input on this will probably be laughed at but as i like the mechwarrior series and something i've noticed is that energy weapons produce extreme heat i don't know if that?s a problem with PDSverse energy weapons, but if 50ton - 100 ton battle mechs have problems being energy weapons dedicated fire platforms within an atmosphere wouldn't that also be a big detriment to a 10 ton powered armor? Of course i have no real military knowledge but I?ve always like mechs (exception of most the gundam sieries i've seen). But then again I doubt you could put a gauss cannon or rifle on a 10 ton mech any ways.

So any ways the way I?m imagining these 10 ton heavies of pdsverse being armed with 40mm He auto cannons or ap rounds as primary armament on a hard point on one of the arms for atmospheric combat and for space you could go for the energy route as I doubt on these ?mech? have much room for enough armor and weaponry to spend much on an effective coolant system to effectively use energy based weapons within a planets atmosphere.

Of course I am not really versed in the weapons specs on the pdsverse weapons but I do find that mechwarrior series does point out some of the pros and cons of weapon load outs though I doubt pdsverse mech have an unlimited supply of elements to produce their energy weapons like mechwarrior.
 
RagingBlueWind
just details here but I think we established the weight of mechanized armor to be around 3 to 4 tons with 10 being the absolute max. I dont think power will be quite an issue at least in the PDSverse since fighters of similar size and probably less tonnage can sport energy weapons. Heat however, I think could be valid. If any cooling system is installed, it would almost have to be cooled through ultra cool liquids since i would imagine with all the radiation discharge that these things will get really hot. this might be another reason why slug throwers or rockets may be used as an alternative since there is no need to worry about overheating (as compared to an energy cannon).

as for the infantry squad, that is more or less what i would have imagined. i think one other thing recon infantry could have is a UAV, with either a small enough model that a single infantry can carry, or a modular construct where four infantry can carry the four parts of the UAV. This will definately extend the range of recon forces. I imagine food and liquids would simply be dealt with high protein, high carbohydrate bars or pellets which minimize space needed and maximize nutrients.

oh and one thing that might be useful?.?.? should there be an engineer in the squad who specializes in demolition, construction (i.e. bridges or trenches) and repair. considering some of the high tech weaponry being carried around, operation times could be greatly increased if there was someone in the field who could repair equipment that might break down.

and a random pro for why a LAW or RPG might be better in some situations than a DEW: collateral damage. im not quite sure how much collateral damage you will do if targeting armor, but firing an RPG into a room will probably incapacitate everyone inside. then again, we have grenade launchers for that.... though an RPG probably would still have a little more range.
 
revan
[edit] Ah, did not read above.
Edited by revan on 02-11-2005 06:58
 
TelQuessir
RBW - if you got a medium or heavy suit in a squad it can carry a plasma weapon. Heat would likewise be a consideration in weapon systems... an ASCA would possibly have one primary energy gun and a few other ballistic weapons for backup or multiple roles.

Can I assume that everyone is in agreement to D. Hawking's friend's ASCA concept art in the respective forum? If so, we can start to devise loadouts for them.
 
revan
For a LRRP team how about:

1: team leader (same as Tel said)
2: designated marksman (with back up commo.)
3: grenadier (demo and/or HVR or equivalant)
4: automatic gunner (HMG or SAW)

The automatic gunner would be needed to lay down a base of fire if the team was discovered in order to break contact. Marksman would really just carry and accurized version of a standard rifle. All other equipment would be split between team members.

Course I like to think heavy for those times when it counts.

I would think that a dedicated repair specialist would be unneeded given that all team members would take care of their gear.
Further in the event of the loss of a team member all team members would have cross trained in each of the other specialities so as to ensure that the loss of a team member would not cripple the team.

The art is fine to me by the way.
Edited by revan on 02-11-2005 07:02
 
RagingBlueWind
you have my vote.

just a thought about how to cool weapons. would it be possible to use one time use cooling "pods". as in, its a canister of cooling fluid that rapidly sucks up the heat. the canister is then discharged much like the casing of the round (the cooling pod could possibly even be integrated into the energy capsule of the DEW). That way, the cooling system wouldnt have to worry about dissipating the heat the cooling fluid picks up. I think this setup would actually minimize energy and size requiements. For a normal fluid cooling system, there has to be tons of tubing, as well as a device to pump the coolant as well as radiate it. a disponsable cooling unit simply conducts the heat possibly through a super conductive metal to a sitting tank of fluid with high heat capacity. the heat is then radiated by sitting on the ground and waiting for small children to come and pick it up whereby the heat is then dissipated to their hands Grin . ok you get the point though. what do you guys think? is it feasable?
 
TelQuessir
For disposable weapon systems? It might just make your "beam bazooka" a feasible system for general use,
 
Coolhand77
Just thought I would drop one more little note here. For covert ops, sniper teams, and the like, you will want suppressed projectile weapons. Energy weapons of any sort usually leave a DEW line, or a line of ionized air particles in thier wake, leading right back to your emmiter. A suppressed projectile weapon on the other hand, even super or hyper sonic, is much harder to pin down. Super/hypersonic shockwaves are difficult to use to detect a sniper. A suppressor also hides the muzzle flash and cools the barrel "exhaust". Suppresors don't make you silent, they make you invisible.

The historical basis for this is WW2 where the (if I remeber correctly) Norwegians used suppressed snipers in hit and fade operations against german troops with tanks, mortars and counter snipers. Even when the sonic crack of the bullet was heard, they couldn't pinpoint it because of secondary echos and the fact that the crack is localized to the bullet, not the shooter.

Hmmm...suppressed, semi-auto, variable payload (KE penetrators, anti personnel "buckshot" or flechette loads, shaped charge warhead, HE warhead, "induced plasma armorpiercing warhead" Grin ) 25mm "light 25" with caseless 6.5mm or bigger, high balistic coefficiant assault rifles (think G11 with more punch and ditch the "salvo" recoil mechanism) for personal defense or soft targets out to 800 meters.

And of course, you can use the 25mm as the "AR" load for your PA troopers in support of thier heavier ordinance.
Wash - "This is going to get pretty interesting"
Mal - "Define Interesting"
Wash - "Oh god, oh god, we're all going to die?"

Still flying!
 
revan
To me a one shot DEW is not the way to go. They are expensive heavy, and give away your position every time they are fired. A disposable rocket or missile would seem to do the job just fine. Hell a gun could proabably do the same thing cheaper and with less of a risk of revealing yourself. In my opinion a DEW should really only be given to the big boys where who have more of a need for it on the battle line.

I'm beginning to wonder of they should just be limited to tanks and heavy suits. They would have the space to mount them as well as a dedicated cooling unit and would have less need for concealment.

For infantry you would proabaly want something akin to the panzerfaust of WW2 or the LAW. Course now that I think about it the Germans did copy the allied bazooka.
Edited by revan on 03-11-2005 01:28
 
RagingBlueWind
I think the one shot DEW (which actually isn't one shot... it has one shot energy capsules instead of a capcitor and generator) wasn't designed to begin with as a stealth weapon. From its inception in this thread, I believe its been sold as an anti armor weapon akin to a rocket launcher. It wasn't supposed to be stealthy. That being said, a disponsable rocket isn't much stealthier than a shoulder mounted DEW.

I dont think there is any need to limit DEWs to tanks and heavy suits. If a shoulder mounted DEW can be supplied to infantry as an anti tank weapon, I dont see whats the problem of handing greater firepower to a "smaller" package. I think the main question though is, do we want infantry in front line battles where the DEW would be used. So far, the only thing good infantry have been made out for seems to be independent recon where their anti armor weapon is a sniper rail gun which really is stealthy.
 
Coolhand77
Try looking up the "Carl Gustov" recoilless rifle. Its man portable, its rifled, its effective, and in a "future tech" setting, it can be used as a housing for "one shot" DEW shells. The tube would just touch it off. The power supply, coolant, "fuel", etc. would be housed in a single shot, disposable shell. Kinda like the idea for a pulsed laser rifle using disposable "Caps" or capacitors, that burn themselves out each time they are used.
Wash - "This is going to get pretty interesting"
Mal - "Define Interesting"
Wash - "Oh god, oh god, we're all going to die?"

Still flying!
 
TelQuessir
Right, and the deployment of which will take 2 or 3 light infantrymen. I would say that everyone here would prefer to have a medium suit with a built in energy gun and leave it as that, than have a single shot heavy weapon.

With the diverse nature of the PDSverse, we can however expect deployment of "disposable DEWs" and the like.

Let's take a look at a short comparison of infantry heavy weapons, so far:

Single shot DEW - potentially troublesome due to weight or requirement of high tech stuff.

The beam's power might be questioned - may be underpowered from reliance of a single-use power source, or hazardous in operation due to emissions.

Compare this to a high-tech antitank missile or rocket system, lets just make a smaller version of a warship's HVR150 to one third of the size. (HVR50).

Operation can be as easy as using a present-day electrical ignition system for whatever propulsion it uses (advanced version of chemical energy rocket that propels the projectile at hypersonic speeds will do fine), and since it is simply a solid kinetic penetrator, it is immune to most anti-missile systems.

This is unlike guided missiles whose guidance systems are vulnerable to things like LDS, and so forth. This simply is a projector of the equivalent of a 120mm APFSDS round from a present-day main battle tank.

Couple this to an advanced enough targeting system, and the prospect of multi-ammunition options and even autoloaders for heavier powered armours and armoured vehicles, and you've a very nice substitute for a railgun weapon system without the need for a reactor on the vehicle.
 
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