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HGN Fighter Weapons School
Hi all,

I'm thinking of creating some scenarios based around a HGN Fighter Weapons School.

I understand that there is an effort to control the roleplaying material to make the PDSverse consistant so I thought I'd post the thought here for discussion before I write scenarios based on background information that isn't in line with canon..


[i]"O Maker, help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, help us to lay waste their humble homes with a rain of fire; help us to wring the hea
The FWS (fighter weapon school - you thinking of Top Gun? Smile ) is a subject that is unstudied at this point.

You may thus proceed at full steam at roleplaying in this context. Thanks for your consideration of existing protocols.

Our fighters' doctrines and technicalities are rather straightforward so there is little need to adapt to anything other than in-game performance of fightercraft.

Just a couple notes though:

Fighters nowadays are built more like little frigates than older fightercraft. The fighters you see in shows like Battlestar Galactica are our point defense interceptors, with very limited capabilities.

PDIs are pretty much HW1 style fighters, highly maneuverable and whatnot. Presently superceded by more cost effective drone fighters - so long as they can perform simple tasks like attack this and RTB they're doing the PDI role fine.

For the rest of the manned fighters, the ideal represented in the heavy strike fighter is due to the fact that we want to fly fighters close to enemy warships and have them survive the usual array of enemy CIWS long enough to do some damage to the enemy. Forget about using "normal" fighters in this role. Go for frigates without their turreted armaments - that's what the Lavi and Avenger are built for.

The "realistic" doctrine for fighters in space warfare is to use them as missile buses - PDIs like Hawks and Vagyr LAC IIs dual-role in this manner while heavier fighters with nuclear missile armaments operate like missile gunboats of today in the standoff attack role.
Edited by TelQuessir on 25-10-2005 00:36
I'll be damned, a Top Gun in space Grin
I've been doing some reasearch into naval warfare and am thinking of basing training missions on the Gulf of Sidra incidents.

It'll need some tweaking to keep it fun and engaging. I'll post more in the wargaming thread when I've got more together...

:topic: I can't find anything about Vaygr religion here, is there any fluff around?
Edited by HappySacks on 25-10-2005 12:11
[i]"O Maker, help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, help us to lay waste their humble homes with a rain of fire; help us to wring the hea
>> Hiigaran News Network Holocast
>> Hiigaran Naval Strike and Aerospace Warfare Center

[..Holofield fades in..]

Aerospace wing training is in session at the Naval Strike and Aerospace Warfare Center in orbit around Hiigara. This is where HGN & HGNS strikecraft pilots hone their collective skills before deploying to far places and inevitable danger zones.

HGNSAWC is the source for expertise on integrated space warfare, overland aeropace superiority, strike fighter employment, CAP management, CSAR and CAS.

Manned by 130 officers, 250 enlisted personnel and 500 contract personnel, it flies Blade Interceptors, Light Strike Fighters, Thunderbolt Assault Bombers, Avenger Heavy Fighters and assorted orbital drop craft, manned and unmanned.

Carrier aerospace wing training and the Strike Fighter Tactics Instructor course are the primary users of the HGNSAWC training complex. Normally, four to five aerospace wings per year, for three to four week periods each, conduct syllabus training at HGNSAWC in preparation for major deployments.

There are many different courses within the overall Naval Aerospace strike warfare training continuum.

Aerospace wing training focuses on power projection, spaceborne operations, planetary operations, CSAR and CAS.

HGNSAWC's Strike Fighter Tactics Instructor (SFTI) course is conducted five times a year, three of nine-week duration and two which are six weeks long. HGNSAWC teaches both aerospace-to-aerospace and aerospace-to-ground tactics.

Academics are integral to HGNSAWC. Lecture topics range across the full spectrum of strategic, technical and tactical matters at the battle group command, aerospace wing command, squadron and individual level.

The Strike Leader Attack Training Syllabus (SLATS) introduces junior HGN and HGNS officers to all aspects of aerospace wing, battle group and joint force tactics and planning hardware.

The Advanced Mission Commanders Course stresses spaceborne battle management for Linebacker mission commanders and their teams of forward aerospace controllers.

New Weapons and Tactics courses have been instituted in the past year. These courses are based on the highly successful SFTI course at HGNSAWC. In the very near future there will be a total Aerospace Combat Training Continuum throughout the Fleet that will integrate aerospace warfare training and tactics like never before.

HGNSAWC's Intelligence Department features targeteers and weaponeering experts, assisted by enlisted intelligence specialists, who gather data on potential trouble areas around the Hiigaran systems where deployed Naval forces might be summoned for "presence" or action.

HGNSAWC touches each HGN or HGNS aviator in many ways, providing quality and standardized training curricula; orchestrating large training exercises and publishing technical/tactical publications authored by the staff.

Strikecraft pilots graduating from the school are typically based on front line carriers to train the other pilots and guide them in combat. These pilots are not expendable and represent a significant investment by the Kiith of Hiigara, though their considerable skill may be brought to bear on difficult special operation missions like the HGNS operate.

The ultimate goal of HGNSAWC is to ensure that excellence in training will lead to victory in battle.

[..Holofield fades out..]


Edited by HappySacks on 26-10-2005 21:51
[i]"O Maker, help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, help us to lay waste their humble homes with a rain of fire; help us to wring the hea
One thing bother me:
Does HGN can afrord (or I should say: is it worth of the $$ tranfered to that project) to creater a fighter school in time of ful scale galactic war??

I mean during WW2 only trained (trained, not veteran) pilots were those from pre-war times or US pilots during last days of pacific war (when US and it's total Air superiority could afford longer training period for pilots).

I know that in modern time you need years to learn how to fly a jet, but note that all combat doctrines are focused on short period conflicts.
Even without nuclear weapons I can't imagine few years long conflict
(of course I don't mean Grenland vs. Sierra Leone like conflict where both sides would spend few years constructing troop transports first Grin )
there might be a sound reasoning for it

the populations of both the vayger and the higarans are huge and the terratorys vast. Both of these factors mean that the war will drag on a long, long time.

Also, there are likely to be some areas that are away from the frontline (i.e. itll take rooky pilots months to reach the frontlines) and there is likely to be a surplus of a few hundreds/thousands of pilots that arnt immediatly needed.

Taking the time to train these pilots before sending them into combat would have the direct effects of making these pilots better. They will also have the indirect effects of improving rookie pilots when the veterans experaince rubs of on them.

even a little increase in basic skill might have profound reprocutions. With a little training the amount of pilots to survive an engagement will increase. These then have a little more skill whitch they can bring into the next battle/share with their wingmen resulting in a little higher survival rates, etc
Actually the Top Gun and Red Flag schools came about in times of conflict (although to be fair it was not a WW2 level conflict). The US was not getting the quality fighter pilot that was needed in Vietnam and both the USN and USAF began schools to train pilots how to operate in the combat environment.

It becomes a matter of return on investiment. If you can afford the training time and logistics, getting more out of your combat aircrews is always better. Besides I would argue that in the HGN 90% of the school would be done in simulation. It might even be feasible (actually probable) that the crews would train constantly in simulation within the fleet.
Another thing is that many military forces train the military of other friendly governments from time to time.

It's quite common for forces of the world to train together with special forces\elite detachments.


Elyssia, is presently neutral at this point but leans heavily towards the Hiigaran Republic. Their borders have been constantly probed by Vagyr (Loyalist) and Turanic forces and they have steadily lost border assets and colonies to the invaders

The Turanic raiders probably like to pick off Elyassian ships so these instructors would go over to train Elyassian pilots to protect their in return for a political favour to the New Diiamid or a lot of salt.

Maybe I'm going a bit wild here....
Edited by HappySacks on 26-10-2005 19:49
[i]"O Maker, help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, help us to lay waste their humble homes with a rain of fire; help us to wring the hea
Lol, salt. Doing good there.

Now, since you mentioned jet fighters Smile

Jet Vs Fusion Engines

Nuclear fusion engines are commonplace on modern spacecraft - in fact, this technology is the stablemate of our present form of space economy and civilisation.

For specialised atmospheric craft (aircraft) operating in oxygenated atmospheres though, fusion engines represent a very poor choice although fusion engined craft have nigh unstoppable capabilities in acceleration, especially where the craft in question is fitted with inertial dampening technology.

A fusion engine, and its support equipment and necessary structure to contain it, is very large and heavy - this while of limited consideration for an interstellar ship is a decided disadvantage for atmospheric use as it immediately demands a, in aircraft engineering terms, huge airframe.

This means that the only fusion powered aircraft operating on a usual basis in the atmospheres of habitable planets would be stratospheric airships, heavy lifter craft and very large spaceplanes. Even then, the hazardous thermal and noise emissions from their nuclear powerplants means that their operation is restricted to spaceports constructed far from planetary habitats.

The gas turbine in a very advanced form is thus, the stablemate of aircraft propulsion in breathable atmospheres (ie, earthlike).

(Writer's note: I would say that light helicopter gas turbines would be the most basic form of these futuristic jet engines, and the most complex being turbo-scramjets for military aircraft - these are capable of switching between multiple modes of operations, and may bypass the fan stages for high altitude hypersonic flight, i.e., scramjet mode. The engines will also need to be capable of adapting to the atmosphere they are operating in - and performance may be affected by oxygen content in said atmosphere.

Fusion powerplants, which don't need oxygen, would be the choice for propulsion in non-habitable atmospheres.)
Edited by TelQuessir on 26-10-2005 00:59
Good point well made. Have edited above fluff for consistency. I would guess that in light of what you said, atmospheric craft could be dropped from orbit to perform close air support to HGN marines. I reckon that could work.

I hear there is a new super carrier undergoing trials at the HGN proving grounds (at Tanis?).

I would expect pretty tight security for that kind of op...
Edited by HappySacks on 26-10-2005 20:32
[i]"O Maker, help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, help us to lay waste their humble homes with a rain of fire; help us to wring the hea
I find the bit of news from the HNS about the "Anteater" interesting. I would think that Fleet intell would also find that the older Shamshir would have even better properties for atmospheric flight. It has been promoted that the plasma cannon could actually have a system whereby the atmosphere is rammed through the intake, superheated by the plasma coils and explosively expanded throught the engine ports giving it propulsion. This would conform to the proposed scramjet hypothisis above. It would of course likely need a far more sensitive set of algorithyms for atmospheric operations than as a weapon system in space. I also suspect that Shamshir class would require rather long runway for actually dirtside landings as it does not appear to have VTOL capability. The four sensor fins with actuators can also provide directional control on all axis.

Aerodynamically speaking Shamshir is less problematic than the new 'anteater' class at higher speeds. Of course very low speed (< 200 knots) or VTOL the aerodynamics are not as critical. :bigrazz:
Edited by yasotay on 27-10-2005 00:18
Anteater is not a fixed-wing aircraft in-atmosphere, but employed as a large attack vertol or cargo hauler. It can do subsonic vertical launch into space or powered re-entries in emergencies.

The Shamshir's central cylinder indeed makes it an interesting propulsion system - employment of such a ship in-atmosphere conforms to a 60m long, 500 ton huge lifting-body aircraft that dwarfs the B-52 Smile
I always thought that the Anteater had fully retractable wings stored internally made of a strong, but not very rigid, high impact turboplastic or similar matearel (set up like a bat wing or hang glider with support struts that gave the wing rigidity and shape but also allowed it to fold up without taking up much space) as well as VTOL jets. If not that than that idea could be used on other craft such as dropships, re-entry vehicals, intra-atmosperic military craft, stuff like that.

I've got an idea, how 'bout we open up a thread specificly for PDSverse ground/atmosperic warfare, and dump some of these ideas in there that can be used later as we see fit. Wait wait, I'm going off topic again aren't I?
Indeed even the new A380 would look rather small compared to a Shamshir or other vette blazing through the atmosphere. While atmospheric flight with potentially feasible (within a PDS sense) propulsion might be 'feasible' the massive weight of any of these ships might make a conventional landing a very limited affair. Specially stressed landing fields most likely.
Quick thought, for fusion powered craft, they would probably depend on "lift fan" type engines, or electric turbines, run off the fusion reactor power, for a quieter takeoff, then begin feeding coolant through a manifold in the engine to both cool the reactor as you take it off stand by and ramp it up to full capacity, and to super heat the air in the turbine, without actually having to expell any drive plasma or reaction mass till you get high enough that the atmosphere cannot act as your reaction mass as it expands from coming in contact with the heat exchangers in the turbines.

The principle has been around since the NERVA fisson reactor engines, where the theory was, you use a nuclear reactor to heat the the air in the jets by passing it through a simple heat exchanger radiator. The end result would be passing whatever reaction mass you are using over the hot fisson pile and expelling it out the back as "rocket thrust" or sucking in the outside air through turbines and doing the same thing. They were going to mount it on the B-36, but the project only lasted through getting the prototype reactor off the ground and flying. They never powered the aircraft from it, they just wanted to see if the plane could handle the weight of the shielding and fisson pile.
Wash - "This is going to get pretty interesting"
Mal - "Define Interesting"
Wash - "Oh god, oh god, we're all going to die?"

Still flying!
Oh, almost forgot, since the "Atmospheric" engines are all electric (including the coolant pumps) they could be stored on the "carrier" untill needed and then attached to specific hardpoints build into any fusion capable craft. All the hard points would need would be enough strength to handle thrust and manuver, and electrical and coolant system feeds to feed the engines. Might even make them pivotable like turrets....then again maybe I've been watching Serenity and Firefly too much.
Wash - "This is going to get pretty interesting"
Mal - "Define Interesting"
Wash - "Oh god, oh god, we're all going to die?"

Still flying!
Good stuff Coolhand, I had wondered about the feasibility of electric propulsion for nuclear powered aircraft/ships for the aforementioned very large electrical power available to them.

The Failaka indeed does have provision for electric lift fans to augment its fuselage jets and pivoting main engine nozzle (JSF style). Very necessary for low speed capability.

Better stuff from me when I've time to write. Keep going in the meantime. Ground ops thread - good to know someone other than myself has interest in what I think is a worthwhile expansion of the PDSverse into the planetary operations arena. Start a discussion on that if you wish, and I will participate when able.
Edited by TelQuessir on 27-10-2005 12:33
Ok, I guess I'm on it
I've seen a piece of fan fic on this site that has a bloodhound frigate in atmospheric flight!

Tel, just a thought - is the "Janes Fighting Spacecraft" going to tell us which craft are are capable of atmospheric flight?

Yas, I hear what you are saying about 90% of training being done in a simulator, probably on-board the fleet carrier. I agree, the holographic technology available to the HGN would make for advanced training simulators. Wars are expensive and I'm sure the New Diiamid will want to save as many shekels as they can.

So, after some thought - I'm saying that HGNSAWC offer 'train the trainer' style courses using simulated and real combined arms excercises. These pupils then return to their fleets to train squadrons using simulations.

I think this works well for the background to the mission(s) I'm working on - treat it as a training simulation on board the fleet carrier.

When those new powered-armor marines come out, who you gonna call for close air support Wink
Edited by HappySacks on 28-10-2005 07:16
[i]"O Maker, help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, help us to lay waste their humble homes with a rain of fire; help us to wring the hea
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