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A concept.... positron/electron weaponry...
Glacialis
This would only work in an established and well-defended system. The range for microworhmoles is not limited. I think we determined it was about a solar system, maybe less? That, and it depends on two pieces of equipment attuned to each other, which is why in HGN M02 you can't receive materials from Hiigara directly -- didn't have a set of it matched to yours.
 
TelQuessir
Shuku-Chi, very respectable effort.

On the viability of antimatter weapons and power generation technology in PDS, the issue here is "why not".

I would however, wish for technology to mature for at least two generations more before we have AM ordnance operational.

To all contributors to this discussion - good job.

 
Inert
I would like to point out it is not not unreasonable the mothership can siphon resources off the planet itself. However it would be much more profitable to get it off the millions of asteroids out there that are so much more valuable then some ores on a nearly water flooded planet like Hiigara.

Secondly, microwormholes have unlimited range and instantaneous transfer. There is no limiting factor to how far it can be. The only drawback is that you require two quantum plates to be charged and seperated. Then each plate would be linked to fusion reactors to power a wormhole between them.
 
Nemmerle

Edited by Nemmerle on 08-10-2005 20:57
 
Nemmerle
I think that the ships should carry the antimatter with them. The inhibitor technology could possibly disable a wormhole supplied vessel's weaponry. Besides, it's got to be better to lose one ship to an antimatter breach than to lose the anti-matter production facility (and by extension any ships it has an open wormhole with) to whatever radiation comes back through the wormhole when a ship is destroyed.
 
Inert
Wormholes are not affected by hyperspace inhibitors.
 
Nemmerle
I said the technology, 'could possibly,' not that in its current form it would.
 
RagingBlueWind
if wormholes are not limited, then what IS preventing Hiigara from shipping supplies directly to the frontline?

even if wormholes are of limited range (which according to inert they are not), would it be unresonable to have a series of relay stations that would be able to skip the AM over, granted the star was close enough and you didnt need a 50 light year long chain of relay station? i think the main thing about transfering AM to a warhead is that, if we transfered it to the ship, then fed it into a missile, we would still run into the same problem of the missile being shot down meters away from its launch tube. ANd if a missile had the wormhole device inside of it, i would imagine it would be rather large. perhaps a way around this would to be to create dedicated corvettes which have the microwormhole device and whose sole purpose is to arm and launch AM missiles. this way, we dont have overly sized missiles, we can get the missiles closer to their targets before arming, and should the missile be intercepted, we'd only loose a corvette as opposed to having a hole torn into a capital ship. (plus if it blows up sufficently close to the enemy capital ship, they will take damage too....)
 
CIWS

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Shuku-Chi wrote:
There might be the potential application that antimatter literally will annihilate matter it comes in contact with, and that'll slough off layers and layers of armor (in the case of warheads). If you can make mass driven containers with magnetic bottles inside, you could in theory "inject" the antimatter into the hull if the round has sufficient velocity and the correct shape, much like how HEAT rounds in modern tank munitions work today.

However, reactive armor of today is known to deflect such a explosive cone, and the tech of this world is far beyond that of ours.


Might be a bit more difficult than that. For one in space there's going to be no shock from the detonating explosives to disrupt the jet. For another such a thing would really only help limit the damage not avoid it since you're basically throwing matter at the antimatter to get it to blow up further away from your ship.

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But really, if you have fission warhead-equipped missiles, there's no reason why you shouldn't have the higher output antimatter variety.


Fusion warheads are used on modern warship not fission. Plus fission and fusion warheads are just going to vaporize if they get shot down as they leave the tube whereas an antimatter warhead will explode. One little problem I just thought of in that scenario is one of fratricide.

There are very few ships in PDS that operate on their own. Usually you've got a squadron, flotilla, or one of the big boys with escorts. Missiles are also usually launched in salvos to maximize their chances of getting through enemy PD grids.. now imagine what happens if a vag LDS plinks an AM warhead in one of these salvos, we're talking a blast with the potential to set off every other missile in the salvo with it.

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Ideally, you'd have frigate-controlled drones (large enough to house wormhole receivers) pilot themselves into enemy ships (though a big target like that would be easy to shoot down), or direct munitions itself using mass drivers/missiles/both (much like the drones in the drone frigate, operated at range).


Now there's a thought. An AI controlled platform like the Hydrashark for AM weapons, or, since we've made a generation jump, a fully automated version of the Falconer. Hook it to the proposed AM relay system. Cheap delivery platforms perhaps based off the Kite Drone to deliver the warheads (the fact the Kite can't carry many missiles being somehwat alleviated by the fact that they're cheap and with AM you aren't going to need many missiles).
If the fireball can't be seen from orbit you obviously aren't trying hard enough.

There is no 'overkill' only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload'. -Schlock Mercenary
 
Glacialis
Inert: They do have a range limitation. If they didn't, there would be little reason not to ship RUs directly to the front lines. There must be some other limiting factor. Perhaps these aren't wormholes as we think of them, but another technology.
 
Inert
No, unlimited distance. I just pointed out why you would rather harvest the thing right off the rock then supply it directly.

Secondly you need both plates to be charged and seperated. Each plate has a hole in it, which you send your atoms through. They also have to be linked to at least three industrial fusion reactors, or as much power a frigate generates.
 
Glacialis
No, again, you're not seeing it. If the mothership, as important as it was, was able to receive resource shipments from an entire planet -- why didn't it fill all of its prodigous cargo holds with a million RU? Under attack or not, they could at least have done that.

There would be no need for supply ships. Merchants? Anything moving anything but luxuries -- where the "real thing" matters -- and personnel would be out of business.

There must be a range limit, or some other limiting factor as to why this wasn't done in the HW universe.
 
Shuku-Chi
TelQuessir: Thanks for the clarification. I thought that AM was feasible, but it still seemed like people were searching for an elegant solution to deploy it, so I took it as an interesting thought problem. It's good to know it's under consideration.

Nemmerle: I'm not entirely clear on how the wormhole works, exactly, but since the mothership has never had a problem with resource controllers, I suspect that wormhole inhibition technology doesn't exist yet. If it were developed, it'd also screw up resource operations, and thus would be an invaluable tactical tool.

As for "feedback" getting through wormholes to damage ships, I'm not sure that happens. As an example, when a resource controller is destroyed, the mothership is not taken with it. While a wormhole could theoretically have energy pass through it, Hiigaran engineers either got around this problem, or these wormholes are only capable of sending matter. If you get tech. that can send energy, you could in theory send power directly to frigates for whatever end...

RagingBlueWind/Glacialis: I didn't mean to imply that this antimatter collection operation was invulnerable to safe from attack. In fact, to maintain the tactical advantage of possessing AM munitions, you'd have to closely guard an AM station just as you'd closely guard a resourcing operation.

CIWS: I think the missile tube/fratricide problem could be solved if you don't use warheads. That is, you contain antimatter in a magnetic bubble and accelerate it using a charged field. Thus, operation is more purely like a mass driver (and similar to older weapons systems in the original Plasma Bomber). I haven't had a chance to read more extensively about PDS, so I'm not sure if such kinetic weapons can be "shot down" so to speak, but it might prove more efficient. Of course, the end product of this would be an armor penetrating "shell" rather than a standoff warhead weapon.
 
CIWS
[QUOTE]
CIWS: I think the missile tube/fratricide problem could be solved if you don't use warheads. That is, you contain antimatter in a magnetic bubble and accelerate it using a charged field. Thus, operation is more purely like a mass driver (and similar to older weapons systems in the original Plasma Bomber). I haven't had a chance to read more extensively about PDS, so I'm not sure if such kinetic weapons can be "shot down" so to speak, but it might prove more efficient. Of course, the end product of this would be an armor penetrating "shell" rather than a standoff warhead weapon.[/QUOTE]

Yes, kinetic projectiles can be shot down.
If the fireball can't be seen from orbit you obviously aren't trying hard enough.

There is no 'overkill' only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload'. -Schlock Mercenary
 
RagingBlueWind

Quote

Shuku-Chi wrote:
RagingBlueWind/Glacialis: I didn't mean to imply that this antimatter collection operation was invulnerable to safe from attack. In fact, to maintain the tactical advantage of possessing AM munitions, you'd have to closely guard an AM station just as you'd closely guard a resourcing operation.


I didn't mean to imply that you woulnd't have to guard an AM station. Its definately a valid point. But if you're AM production facility is a solar system and a half away from the front lines, it'll be easier to defend. Inhibitor fields would prevent enemy fleets from jumping past your front lines. THe only threat I can see (and i may be wrong) would be a special task force that might be able to sneak past the front lines but honstly, if you have a full fledged defensive fleet in orbit around your production facility
a) the task force isnt going to be able to destroy the fleet (unless the fleet is really stupid and the task foce godly)
b) id imagine youd need some serious fleet firepower to destroy a space station with a fleet guarding it. now this might seem weird becuase chimera wasn't all that strong. but remember, this station is in orbit really close to the sun, so its going to be heavily armored just to protect itself from the heat and radiation produced by the sun. plus, theres no reason why we can't just armor it up considering how important it is to keep it alive.

obviously with what i said, i dont think that itll be easy to defend an AM station. No doubt the enemy will try and destroy them for strategic reasons. But likewise, i don't see why they can't be defended as well against such attacks.
Edited by RagingBlueWind on 09-10-2005 19:56
 
Glacialis
AM production station can withstand a low solar orbit -- it is very doubtful that any starship can. Well, except for the very specialized transports needed to move the stuff.
 
Nemmerle
Just because it has excellent thermal dissipation technology it does not follow that it is particularly sturdy. Indeed with a mass of radiator panels and the like it might be very fragile.
 
Inert

Quote

Glacialis wrote:
No, again, you're not seeing it. If the mothership, as important as it was, was able to receive resource shipments from an entire planet -- why didn't it fill all of its prodigous cargo holds with a million RU? Under attack or not, they could at least have done that.

There would be no need for supply ships. Merchants? Anything moving anything but luxuries -- where the "real thing" matters -- and personnel would be out of business.

There must be a range limit, or some other limiting factor as to why this wasn't done in the HW universe.


First, the Hiigarans as far as I know only control one planet, Hiigara. And if you notice, Hiigara is a water flooded planet. Not to mention the Taiidani have been living on it for at least 4,000 years. What resources would there be left?

Secondly, I think this was used, for Tanis. It is hard enough finding a random derelict, but to build a shipyard inside it is a massive undertaking. I presumed Tanis held resourcing lines from other places, as the Tanis system was bleak.

Thirdly, the mothership was not operational until the testing trials. Why have a wormhole open between some distance mining colony and the mothership when it can't even process resources on its own yet? When it was actually underway, I don't think it had the time to run to the nearest mining station and order up quantum plates. Not to mention while the motherhship is perfectly capable of doing it by itself with abundant resources around. It is after all a mothership, capable of doing multiple tasks simultaneously.

Fourth, supply ships are still required. Things such as personnel or non-resource things can not be send through a wormhole without some serious reconfiguration of one's atoms. The "real-thing" you are referring to, I imagine, are the resources? True, they'd be out of commission, but then again there are tons of other things. You don't build an entire company on one specific item and expect to still be in-service a decade later. It's like building an entire company to sell chocolate bars. There are other things that are not chocolate bars you could expand to, like lollipops, non-chocolate candy, etc.
 
CIWS
Should antimatter weapons come into use there are a few things that should probably be addressed-

1.) Wait a couple gens- Already mentioned by Tel, and it's extremely sensible since there are absolutely no AM weapons in the inventory so far to my knowledge.

2.) Perhaps limit it initially to AI-run vessels like the Hydrashark? It's volatile and dangerous stuff even if you do use something like the proposed micro-wormhole transfer (be it direct or relayed). The generation gap may also provide an opportunity for such technology to mature enough, perhaps producing something like a full-AI Falconer to deploy AM-weapon equipped drone fighters. That should minimize actual Hiigaran casualties to premature detonations whether they be to interception or technical glitch.
If the fireball can't be seen from orbit you obviously aren't trying hard enough.

There is no 'overkill' only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload'. -Schlock Mercenary
 
TelQuessir

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First, the Hiigarans as far as I know only control one planet, Hiigara. And if you notice, Hiigara is a water flooded planet. Not to mention the Taiidani have been living on it for at least 4,000 years. What resources would there be left?


That's where those vassal nations come in for the Republic: Off-world resources and the space for full scale industries.

It is untrue that the Hiigarans have only -one- planet, however.
Edited by TelQuessir on 11-10-2005 00:44
 
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