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A concept.... positron/electron weaponry...
RoyalScion
Well basically this is off like... hard science ... not those Gundam things and stuff like that.... I don't know if this has been discussed before because I haven't been on in such a long time! And also I like discussing big stuff... because most of the anti-fighter weaponry has already been taken care of....

Well anyways, basically the general foundation is this: Whenever a positron and an electron collide, the resulting collision creates two photons. These photons (essentially energy... gamma rays) are created by this collision. Now, the energy of these photons can be increased by increasing the relative velocity of the electron to the positron... in other words one should have a much greater speed than the other....

So in theory if maybe we could accelerate these photons/gamma rays, we could create some kind of weaponry?

Not currently sure how one would collect these photons, or if this is feasible at all... but just an idea I'm throwing out because I like to contribute stuff that seems interesting....

Now to end this post as vaguely as it started.....
Edited by RoyalScion on 05-10-2005 14:04
 
TelQuessir
I believe that the gundam references has started in jest - we are allowing the deployment and micromanagement of Marine heavy space armour teams onto enemy capital ships or assist with point defense of space stations. This, like the availability of many custom ship types, doctrines and even PDS cultural evolution is part of our efforts expanding our scope as a roleplaying wargame.

Thus, you are not entitled to comment on what is "junk". Amend the post accordingly, as I do find the first sentence of your first paragraph to be...junk.

Carry on - discuss the viability of positron/electron based technology.
 
Inert
You've invented the laser pen!

Next agenda?

Don't know what photonoic weaponry would yield. Probably nothing harmful.
 
Glacialis
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't positrons and electrons considered antiparticles? Exact opposites? If that's the case, then you're dealing with antimatter. This is an excellent antimatter primer, before we get too far.

Inert: Note that photons are simply packets of energy. A laser beam is made up of photons. Wink

All that said, do we want antimatter weaponry?
 
CIWS
So he's talking about a graser only with the gammes produced using antimatter which is, in a word, volatile.

Of course depending on how you take photonic, there are already laser weapons in PDS (why aren't those more commonplace anyway? If one wanted long range beam-fire they'd be a good choice, though they don't have the impact shock of a relativistic particle).
If the fireball can't be seen from orbit you obviously aren't trying hard enough.

There is no 'overkill' only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload'. -Schlock Mercenary
 
Glacialis
Perhaps that impact shock is what allows it to penetrate armor? As Tel brought up to me in conversation last night, lasers don't attenuate in a vacuum. Sure sure, dust particles...but it takes a heck of a lot longer. It seems to me that, relative to today's weaponry and defensive measures, in the HW/PDS universe defensive technology has a nearly criminal advantage over offensive tech. If armor is that good...maybe "mere" lasers have a hard time with it.
 
RoyalScion
Positrons are antimatter. So I guess basically this is sort of a throwback to anti-matter weaponry. However, this kind of weaponry is on a scale of unprecedented power.... maybe? A half-kilo of anti-matter, according to Glacialis' source, apparently could provide enough energy to power the US for two days.... and that's a LOT of energy.

Oh, in regards to my use of the word "junk" I didn't mean to imply that I hate Gundams or anything like that.... in fact I like mecha-anime and such. But I just didn't want to think I was basing this concept purely off of these mecha-anime things and stuff.... sorry if I offended anybody.

I'll take a look at this more when it's not so early in the morning...
 
CIWS

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Perhaps that impact shock is what allows it to penetrate armor?


Possibly, I seem to remember superconductive layers being in even the old Kushan ships so it could be that it's good enough to make laser unfeasible as primary weapons. Of course if you get a big enough generator behind it even superconducting armor isn't going to stop the beam.



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RoyalScion wrote:
Positrons are antimatter. So I guess basically this is sort of a throwback to anti-matter weaponry. However, this kind of weaponry is on a scale of unprecedented power.... maybe? A half-kilo of anti-matter, according to Glacialis' source, apparently could provide enough energy to power the US for two days.... and that's a LOT of energy.


A half-kilo of antimatter reacting with a half-kilo of normal matter nets you an energy release somewhere abouts 21.5 megatons (speaking of megatons, what kind of yields do missiles typically have?).

The big downside to antimatter though is that unlike Nuclear and Thermonuclear warheads you have to actively keep AM warheads from exploding.

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Oh, in regards to my use of the word "junk" I didn't mean to imply that I hate Gundams or anything like that.... in fact I like mecha-anime and such. But I just didn't want to think I was basing this concept purely off of these mecha-anime things and stuff.... sorry if I offended anybody.


Full-sized 'gundam' style mecha would indeed be rather stupid.

On the other hand I've got no problems with marines in power suits.
Edited by CIWS on 05-10-2005 19:22
If the fireball can't be seen from orbit you obviously aren't trying hard enough.

There is no 'overkill' only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload'. -Schlock Mercenary
 
schumador
I remember wearing a power suit to my last job interview - but I digress!

How about instead of looking for another exotic energy-based weapon system, we have ships whose sole purpose is to "grapple" with an enemy ship?

By "grapple", I mean picture this: A giant adamantium squid wraps itself around its prey, a giant titanium whale. It squeezes until the whale dies from internal ruptures/drowning...

There could be a constant damage-per-second that this Grappler-style ship could dish out, with nothing fancier than: it engages, wraps itself partially around its foe, then "squeezes" until:
A: the prey dies (cue capital-ship death-throe animation), or;
B: The Grappler itself is destroyed (by the prey and/or its escorts/rescuers)


This could be the Marine/Infiltrator Frigate's steroid-abusing half-cousin...
 
Inert
A grappler concept's drawbacks are related to a marine frigate's. They expose the ship to a ridiculous number of CIWS on a ship, not to mention keeps it from moving.
 
TelQuessir
Not to mention everyone is going to shoot you with huge amounts of heavy weaponry from something like 6000 km out if detected that far off.

I am not entertaining ideas that will be only feasible in Hollywood movies.
 
RagingBlueWind

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CIWS wrote:

The big downside to antimatter though is that unlike Nuclear and Thermonuclear warheads you have to actively keep AM warheads from exploding.


couldn't this problem be "dealt" with by using very small amounts of anti matter. a small gun, like the ones mounted on strike craft, could fire, anti matter "containers". if the antimatter was to spill out of the ammo, then all that would be destroyed would be the strike craft which i imagined would probably have been destroyed if it had suffered a serious enough blow to rupture all the antimatter containement. even if anti matter was applied on such a small scale, i would imagine it would me many times more damaging than a simple kinetic projectile weapon, especially if used against other strike craft.

of course, the problem i see with this, is making a bullet that would actually have the mechanism to contain antimatter safely. i dont think it would fit in a bullet, nor would it be particularly cheap to make and considering a strike craft spits rounds out like crazy...

the other thought i had for antimatter was a pure antimatter weapon. much like the ion cannon focuses and accelerates ions, couldn't a weapon be designed where anti matter is shot out in a beam (or a ball/burst). i guess, dust particles just might set the whole thing off but i figure if the hiigarans can contain an ion beam, they can make an air tight bubble for antimatter (or not). in any case, anti matter might not even have to be stored. what if it was generated from an accelerator before firing. that would get rid of any problem with having to store antimatter. of course this is all completely dependent on how far accelerator technology has evolved from what we have today... becuase if its not "great leaps and bounds" this wont work either. anyways, kind of random ideas i just tossed around.

oh btw, im new, this mod is awesome!
 
TelQuessir
Welcome then! Enjoy your stay.
 
Glacialis
One thing to consider, is that our assault ion cannons are already turning mass into energy. So we have matter/energy conversion -- would antimatter really be more efficient?
 
RoyalScion
Perhaps we can use this to miniaturize heavier ion cannons to some extent... so we can fit them on lighter craft maybe? Is anti-matter more viable in smaller amounts?

I guess it boils down to whether AICs or anti-matter is more efficient.... however since I'm not familiar with the fluff on AICs I'll just step away...

Well according to your anti-matter primer... apparently anti-matter seems to be extremely efficient at producing large amounts of energy? Or am I just reading it wrong?

 
RagingBlueWind
i dont know about ion cannons having matter to energy conversion (are they nuclear blasts?)
regardless, antimatter is generally considered the most efficent matter to energy conversion process by modern day science. i remember hearing something that a rasin sized amount of antimater reacting with matter produced as much energy as burning all the fuel used by 11 space shuttles.
 
CIWS

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[b]
couldn't this problem be "dealt" with by using very small amounts of anti matter. a small gun, like the ones mounted on strike craft, could fire, anti matter "containers". if the antimatter was to spill out of the ammo, then all that would be destroyed would be the strike craft which i imagined would probably have been destroyed if it had suffered a serious enough blow to rupture all the antimatter containement. even if anti matter was applied on such a small scale, i would imagine it would me many times more damaging than a simple kinetic projectile weapon, especially if used against other strike craft.


Except where are the ammo reloads for these fighters being stored? What is carrying these fighters over strategic scale distances? (remember the roleplay aspect Tel is so fond of). And then we're talking about deploying these rounds by subjecting them to high-g accelerations and high-powered magnetic pulses by throwing them out of a mass driver.

Further, any magazine hit or landying bay accident is going to result in a n utterly catastrophic detonation more akin to the days of gunpowder navies (though on a much larger scale). Also, in a mass interception environment like the PDS battlespace this brings up other safety issues. I've seen vag LDS blow missiles out of the air almost as soon as they leave their launchers. With nuclear and thermonuclear munitions this isn't a concern.. thier reactions are difficult to trigger so the missile just gets vaporized. With an AM projectile going to detonate instead of being destroyed.

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of course, the problem i see with this, is making a bullet that would actually have the mechanism to contain antimatter safely. i dont think it would fit in a bullet, nor would it be particularly cheap to make and considering a strike craft spits rounds out like crazy...


I was going to mention this point as well but you've already got it Smile

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the other thought i had for antimatter was a pure antimatter weapon. much like the ion cannon focuses and accelerates ions, couldn't a weapon be designed where anti matter is shot out in a beam (or a ball/burst). i guess, dust particles just might set the whole thing off but i figure if the hiigarans can contain an ion beam, they can make an air tight bubble for antimatter (or not).


It'd have a nice punch since any of the ions that impact are going to annihilate on a 1-to-1 basis with the matter of the hull.. of course there's the problem that now you're keeping this stuff onboard where even a minor technical glitch can potentially gut the ship.

Plus there's the cost issue. These ion cannons will require much great and more expensive operating systems, and on top of that antimatter is something that has to be actively manufactured at great expense.. compared to the dirt common elements used in conventional ion cannons.

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in any case, anti matter might not even have to be stored. what if it was generated from an accelerator before firing. that would get rid of any problem with having to store antimatter. of course this is all completely dependent on how far accelerator technology has evolved from what we have today... becuase if its not "great leaps and bounds" this wont work either. anyways, kind of random ideas i just tossed around.


Which means additional equipment both to manufacture the antimatter and safely fire it. And starships have the problem of what you can fit in a limited amount of volume.
If the fireball can't be seen from orbit you obviously aren't trying hard enough.

There is no 'overkill' only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload'. -Schlock Mercenary
 
RagingBlueWind
hmmm... just wondering, what kind of velocities do current mass drivers hurl their ordanine at? cuz this is my idea...

design a special mass driver that hurls projectiles much faster than current mass drivers. naturally itll have a really long reload rate simply because it has to charge capacitors to have enough energy for this "super speed" mass driver. but if you could get a mass driver to fire rounds fast enough so they would have a good chance of penetrating any CIWS, that would take care of the problem with being intercepted before they leave the ship. now the ammo could be stored in the core of the ship which is probably the last place to get hit before a ship actually explodes. i think that would be relatively safe in terms of protecting a ship against its own munitions because by the time the AM containement ruptures, the ship would be swiss cheese already. of course, when the ship does blow up, we have really big problems for EVERYONE! but what if there was a way to safely get rid of antimatter. a controlled annihalation of anti matter as in u funnel minute amounts of antimatter into a chamber to be annihalated. i wonder how long it would take ti disarm? thats the only way i could see of making shells not explode and naturally it would have to be strated well before the ship actually does explode. maybe if a ship was seeing that it was inevitably going to be destroyed, it would start disarming its AM warhead.... regardless... i have no idea how this owuld actually be implemented in game play so its just fluff right now i guess... just bouncing ideas around
 
Coolhand77
I could see it as being a good reason for Kamakazi runs. Your ship is practically hulled, all you have left is propulsion and antimatter containement, the battleship that just killed you is vectoring on another target. So you slam the throttles to full, overload the engines and ram the SOB....BIG AM warhead.Grin

Oh and just for clarification, an Ion cannon is just a particle beam that uses ions instead of neutral particles. Ions are actually easier to accelerate because they react better to magnetic fields than neutral atoms and neutrons. Of course this means you can "bend" the beams with really high powered magnetic fields, but thats a defense thing. Ions and partical beams also have the fun property of playing havoc with electrical systems and electronics. Electricity is technically just the flow of electrons after all, and slapping more protons, and electrons into the metalic matrix of your wiring not only changes conductive properties, but might even cause uncontrollable power surges/ fluctuations...which wel all know really screws up computers. Technically Ion beams could do the same damage to electronics as EMP, just in a more directed, less area of effect manner.
Wash - "This is going to get pretty interesting"
Mal - "Define Interesting"
Wash - "Oh god, oh god, we're all going to die?"

Still flying!
 
RagingBlueWind
positrons are anti-electrons but they still maintain their electrical charge. as far as i know, they act exactly like normal electrons except annihalate one another on contact. a positron beam would bend just as easily as an ion beam... but again.... making a positron beam as a viable weapon is a whole nother issue Grin

EDIT: Oops... positrons are called positrons for a reaosn, they have a positive charge not negative as i implied. regardless, that charge still means you can manipulate it just as easily as u can ions.
Edited by RagingBlueWind on 06-10-2005 05:25
 
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