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Homeworld politics
yasotay
Having been an active participant in the four years of 'Kadesh dead or alive' I would offer this. In HW2'verse the Kadesh are dead. In PDS'verse, they can be alive. Here is my logic that allows me to agree that Norse's Kadesh nation can live (although it is slightly different).

Genocide is not that easy. I always believed that a paranoid culture such as the Kadesh would never allow all of their population to be completely destroyed, by being found in one single point of failure (the garden must have faithful). While a significant portion of the population died in the tragic battle with the Kushan, some (perhaps a temple on a rock within the nebula [pick your method] survived the destruction. They, along with the returned captives (all the MBF AND many swarmers too thank you!), would have started the rocky road of recovery. It would be a brutal. The only true faithful remaining and the 'unclean' returnees would have to come to some kind of reconciliation. Survival tends to create compromise of ideals. Now I think that the Kadesh would slowly become less paranoid and zelot-like because they are not strong enough to keep others out of the Garden. The Hiigaran's, knowing that these people are also exiles, would likely feel an obligation to assist as they can to allow them to remain secure. This would likely lead to at least a friendly relations, if not alliance. I do not however think the Kadesh would be able to do more than secure their space, or would really want to do anything else. So there is a means for the Kadesh to remain.

My thoughts on how the Imperial Taiidan continue to grow in power is derived again from human experiance (early and mid- 20thCentury Europe). The Empire having failed with the death of the Emperor above Hiigara, became several small federations. The strongest of which grew and consolidated over time was the Republic of Taiidan. it returned to the ancient Republic Forum and remained relatively viable. By the time of the Vaygr invasion it had turned into a relatively stable star nation with a professional navy. It fought a gallant but ultimately futile battle and was crushed. Those who could, fled. The Vaygr grabbed people wontonly and pushed them across the Hiigaran frontier in failing ships to create chaos for the Hiigaran's. Those Taiidan who remained were under the crushing control of the Vaygr. When the Imperial Taiidan show up (the Vaygr giving them the authority), to pull the population from utter poverty of the Vaygr administration and remind them that they used to be the greatest Empire in the galaxy, the conversion back to Imperial Taiidan citizenry is immediate and unquestioned.
Edited by yasotay on 07-10-2005 18:39
 
Inert
"Survival tends to create compromise of ideals. Now I think that the Kadesh would slowly become less paranoid and zelot-like because they are not strong enough to keep others out of the Garden."

(Hypothetically speaking, if the Kadeshi are alive...)

That is not true. They don't let anyone survive because they might lead the Taiidani back to them. The only reason the Kadeshi blocked the Hiigarans from leaving was because they were afraid the Taiidani might discover their location and finish them off.

However, the downfall of the Taiidani does not mean unquestioned alliances with the Hiigarans or anyone else. They would be equally paranoid and hateful of the Hiigarans.

First off, the Kadeshi do not receive news, they are secluded inside a nebula that no one passes through. They would've not heard of this through any means. Secondly, the Hiigarans have defiled their garden and destroyed three of their motherships. That's like going up to a religious person, proclaiming you've destroyed their church and slaughtered many of their bishops. They're not going to care that the Hiigarans killed the Taiidani, they will be infuriated and no doubt will try to kill the Hiigarans, even if it means sacrificing themselves.

More over, the Kadeshi will fall. Their ships, while technologically advanced, will not outpace the technological flow of other races, being secluded as they are.
 
Norsehound
My take on the post HW2 'Kadeshi' situation is that they are quite mistrustful of Hiigaran politics and Kiithid motivations. They are like the Tholians of the SFU universe; a 'friendly power' to the Hiigarans and their allies but nothing more. And they are so isolated from the 'east' side of the galaxy that the only real historical enemies they might be facing are Turanic bandits (As most of the kingdoms are formed near the south in proxemity to Elyssia).

Also, my understanding on the post Hw1 Taiidani situation was thus: After the death of the emperor the regional governors tried to retain control over their own areas of space, but fell or merged with the pirates (and thus accelerated the consolidation of the Turanic raiders into kingdom-states). The 'rebels' from the first game bowed to the wishes of the new Hiigaran state and tried forming a republic. Some Taiidani didn't want this (change our ways and cadre to an alien power? never!) and moved out of the 'taiidan republic' to form their own area of space.

These exiles were then conquored by the remains of Riesstiu's empire and held under a harsh oligarchy enforced by the powerful and privalegded military. Thus, Taiidani anchient traditions were further repressed by Riesstiu's memory (Even though there is no official emperor in the new Taiidani Empire. The throne remains vacant as a symbolic gesture to the 'unavenged spirit of Riesstiu). Times are changing though, and interaction with Vagr culture (both IVF and ADM) are stimulating rebellious thoughts in the minds of many Taiidani who would be more comfertable among Vaygr tribes than under the ruling leadership of incompitent zealots of a dead emperor.
Resigned.
 
yasotay
I did not mean to imply that the Kadesh and Hiigaran's are holding hands. I certainly agree that a wacked cultish society would not fully trust the people who led to their downfall.

I do however think that they would compromise to exist. Even an introverted society (witness Imperial Japan where death in battle was fundemental to the majority of the militant population, until that segment of the population was dead) will attempt to survive.

The only thing I have to disagree with in principle regarding Norse' Taiidan discussion above is that the Taiidan population would rather be Vaygr. The Vaygr take what is needed to support their efforts and really don't give to hoots about the locals. If memory serves it is even mentioned in the game or the manual that they strip planets to keep the Armada going. I doubt the Vaygr a. really care what the Taiidan population think and b. have any desire to incorporate them into their society.

If the Taiidan are not willing to change what happened to all the Taiidan who came under Hiigaran rule when the new Hiigaran Republic was formed. Did the Hiigaran's banish them and do an ethnic cleansing of the planets? There was about 100 thousand Kushan who made it to Hiigara if memory serves. Not really enought to run a good sized country on a planet let alone a star nation. Hundred years later they would still have to be focused on procreation just to get a good planet sized population, let alone a star nation. So the billions needed for a star nation had to come from someplace.

If we are talking about human populations then we ought to face the fact that survival instinct is a very real part of the equation.
 
mrWHO
Emm, it was 500 thousands kushan (or did you failed to protect all cryo trays??) + old Higgaran republic population that was ruled by Imp Taiidan.
 
Elendil
I was sure that Hiigara did not have a large population even by the time of the invasion. It could be seen that all the Hiigaran outpost merely consists of a small base and probaly a small light task force as they held a large strategic dominance with the ownership of the seocnd core and anyother relevent hyperspace technology. This dependance on small bases show that they don't have a large population and they don't need a large popualtion to maintain the navy and there is little evidence that they hled a lot of star systems through occupation of planets and such.

The rest of the Hiigarans are rather migrants from other nations in the core. I doubt the Taiidan would let any Hiigaran to remain on Hiigara when the exodus occured..
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Inert
Population-wise, the Mothership contained 600,000 survivors, some of which will die over the process of the journey due to damage by the assault frigates. There's an additional 1000 or so onboard I believe.

But over the course of 100 Hiigaran years, population swelled from ~600,000 to 120million I believe.
 
Elendil
120 million just on Hiigara itself. That was why it remains such a critical target for the VGR to attack. One question though, I wonder how long is one Hiigaran year?
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TelQuessir
For familiarity purposes, assume that one standard year is identical to a Earth year.

Also note that the Hiigarans will not annihilate everyone on the Homeworld when they conclude the Exodus - Hiigara today has as much a diverse racial and cultural demographic as the Vagyr clans.

Thus, the Kushans do not need to breed like orcs to reach the present population number. Also assume that there are a lot of planets who are simply sick of Taiidani oppression - hence the modern Hiigaran Republic.

It is the Republic's many vassal worlds which give them their strength.
Edited by TelQuessir on 09-10-2005 13:01
 
Elendil
ok that makes sense, though how are these different cultural groups represented at the hiigaran government? Are they intergrated into a ktih?
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yasotay
There are many who elect to join Kiith. Indeed it is likely that the ranks of the Soban would have swelled after the fall of the Empire as there would be a lot of out of work Taiidan personnel. There is representation within the Diiamid for the 'Kiith-less', if not then a very large segment of the work force would very quickly become disinterested in the Hiigaran's War and not participated. This of course would have led to the end of the Hiigaran Republic in very short order. If the vassal worlds do not feel that they had a stake in the Republic, then there would be no Republic.

Mr. Who - agree, thanks for the correction, a typo on my part.

As to the Makaan's attack of Hiigara. If memory serves (Mr.Who will correct of course) Makaan actually chased the core and The S'Jet. Sending a remainder of his fleet to the Homeworld, is of course a very logical military course of action. Any nation (planetary or star system) that has its capital overrun is 90% likely to stop existing, or become less than legitimate. Any defense force would very likey attempt to protect the capital. By attacking he would draw the S'Jet and the core back to Hiigara where he could smash it between his pursuit and the force at Hiigara. Lucky for us his plan failed before this could come about.
 
Norsehound
And on the subject of Taiidani opression...

Why would a significant portion of the current 'Taiidan empire' wish to have friendly relations with the Vagr?

It is a firm beleif (by some of my characters, anyway) That the current Oligarchy of admirals are an incompitent lot that accomplish nothing more than the maintenance of the 'visage of Riesstiu.' For, what have the Taiidani done in the past hundred years since the 'beast wars?'

> They haven't expanded their 'empire' to any significant extent.

> Their military is all that remains of the Riesstiu loyalists and whatever ships they could pursuade/capture to return to 'the ranks'. Obviously this does not include Republican vessels.

>The contradicterary nature of 'the Admiralty' of supporting, then venimously opposing, any Vagyr influence (in reguards to the Vaygr-Taiidani alliance and it's conclustion) has shaken their credibility as a sane form of leadership.

>If my fiction is to be beleived, the only thing the empire has conquored ever since loosing Hiigara are the Taiidani who didn't want to have a republic and wished for a better emperor instead. And those refugees didn't have much in the way of a military, as the Republic confiscated it all.

So the "Taiidani Situation' unfolds as thus- After the conclusion of the treaty between the Imperial Taiidani and the Vaygr, the Taiidani have suddenly become an unfreindly nature to the 'majority' of the ADM (any positive relations are not openly proclaimed by any higher-ranking parties). However, many Taiidani units (mostly along the empire's 'southern' border with the Various vaygr clans) find themselves better treated and better welcomed among Vaygr groups (mostly among the IVF).

Another reason for why a poritonage of the Taiidani navy would be pro-Vaygr is for a cultural sake. The Vaygr (IVF, anyway) are not run by a domineering force that was responsible for the stagnation of an entire empire. The cultural similiarities (in my beleif, anyway) of clan-like establishments in both the Vaygr and Taiidani histories are also a positive modifier in V-T relations- especially so since 'The Admiralty' represses any Taiidani Clan seperation in favor of a 'sterlized, unified space empire.'

This is a good explaination as to why Taiidani-exclusive ships have not been seen in the main fighting of the conflict thus far. Only the Advanced Taiidani heavy cruiser has been spotted among Vaygr forces- and Hiigaran intelligence has deciphered that these ships were either sold to the Vaygr at very steep prices, or were 'traded' by disgruntle Taiidani elements to the Vaygr for provisions, favors, etx.
Resigned.
 
Elendil
@ yasotay You assume that the ranks of the Soban swelled upon the fall of the Taiidan Empire, however it is more likely the majority will join the Nabaal and S?jet as they (immediately after the conclusion of the return to the homeworld) have a slightly large influence then the warrior kith Soban. For many Taiidan going to Hiigara many would be engineers, scientists farmers etc considering the help Hiigara needed in the early years and as a result the more economically powerful Kiths would be more welcoming than a warrior Kith.

For these migrants there really is one option for them to have representation in the Kith system, by joining with the very small and smaller kiths with 1- 1000 members. That way the Kith system will be more balanced. And Hiigara really isn?t really a republic more like a government ruled by groups of people based on size and influence as well as having some latent deep religious roots (with relation to RL Islam ? Hiigara?the trip to Mecca?). It isn?t a republic since the government is not elected by the people but clearly picked by a select few.

As for the invasion itself, the siege of Hiigara began at the same time the mothership was attacked. Makaan?s first plan was to get both in one hit, he has no intention of sparing Hiigara once he has the core ? as seen in the planetary bombardment platforms. However the mothership escaped and his plan was ruined so it went to plan B - to slowly give information on the cores and location of Sajuuk to Karen so that the Hiigarans can clear out the keepers and drones for him. Makaan didn?t make it easy but the plan worked, Makaan gained a supposedly clear path to the Dreadnought and had time to actively trap Karen at Balcora. Due to luck, the Hiigarans survived but even then Makaan anticipated that and prepared a large fleet to ambush Karen beside the Sajuuk. But again Makaan was most unfortunately defeated, and he was forced to show his final ace, the planet killers or plan C (which one presumed will be used to persuade Karen to return to Hiigara if Makaan was wearily of a long campaign like Plan B or was forced to delay gaining access to the three cores and Sajuuk. This will act vastly in Makaan?s favour as it has a sufficiently larger fleet than Karen and with the threat of destruction of the Hiigara the Hiigarans will fold. This time there will not be an exodus but extermination) and tried to destroy the planet itself.

From my view Plan C was a contingency plan if Plan B was unable to result in the collection of the other two cores. I believe the mission Sacrifice? (when the Bentus fragments were recovered) was the last point where Plan C could be used. If Makaan managed to gain the First core, Plan C could be sued to force Karen to give up the Second Core (but knowing Karen she may destroy the core instead?)

So Makaan did not chase Karen around instead it was a serious of well laid traps and ambushes designed to either slow Karen down or hopeful destroy her. It is worth noting the majority of his fleet was not spent in siege of Hiigara or in conjunction with Makaan. His vast fleet was rather spread out over occupied lands and Makaan merely used the far jumping cores to quickly jump ahead of Karen into a nearby garrison and prepare accordingly.

As for the point that a nation that has its capital overrun will in 90 per cent of the time fail to operate probably will only really apply to some cases. In the case of Hiigara, the planet was merely sieged (like in SW: TPM Naboo..) no evidence of ground forces were seen to be used by the VGR. In fact this siege did not make or incapitate the Hiiagran government, operations continued as normal except for the annoying prescence of large VGR fleets that sat out of range of planetary defences and merely waited. It also did not make the Hiigaran Nation more illegitimate, (take for example the state of France in world war two after the forming of Vichy France ? world wide everyone still acknowledge the former French fourth? Republic led by DeGaulle)

So the siege was at first meant to be a quick blitzkrieg to shock the Hiigarans and then it went to siege to stop Karen returning and building a fleet. It wasn?t a military choice to cripple the Hiigaran government.


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mrWHO

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except for the annoying prescence of large VGR fleets that sat out of range of planetary defences and merely waited


I'm quite sure that between mission 2-3 there is a planetary bombardment & counterfire movie.

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Any nation (planetary or star system) that has its capital overrun is 90% likely to stop existing, or become less than legitimate.


Sorry, but it's total b*******.
It isn't known well by the rest of the world (mainly because USSR and uncle Stalin effords) but during WW2 Polish people lost not only it's capitol but whole country. Did they stopped fight with Germans ?? No, they formed new goverment (with few people from old that managed to fled to GB ), organized new army (thanks to GB support) and they fought to end. At the end of WW2 we were 4th allied power (YES 4th, before those French cowards) we had our own ships, own air squadrons
etc. There was a chance that we would have our own sit in UN security council, but we had a luck beign "liberated" by USSR who installed a vassal commie goverment.
Edited by mrWHO on 10-10-2005 14:40
 
yasotay
Elendil- First my comment that the ranks of the Soban swelled was not meant to imply that the other Kiith would not also have seen a large increase in numbers. Indeed the Kiith being rather short on people (recall it is canon that some of the smaller Kiith with very few, consolidated with the larger Kiith for survival after the return). The Soban however, are not concerned with background and history of its members. Sort of like the French Foreign Legion after WW2, much of it spoke German as well as French.

I am not aware of any work that indicates that the leadership of the Kiith is hereditary or any less than a capable person being given the authority. So I cannot agree with the comment about irrational actors being in charge. Tends to lead to instability. I would hope that the Hiigaran government, in order to be a successful galactic economic power is more liberal oriented than being a bunch of oligarchs mandating the disenchanted masses to fight for them.

I can agree that the invasion was across a broad front as you suggest and that the Vaygr did attempt ambushes and a broad net to capture the core (the real objective). Having a little knowledge of things military I doubt the detailed series of ambush where established as much as contingency reactions from the cascade of failure. It is well known in the military that the more complex a plan the faster it unravels when it goes wrong (and they always go wrong).

As too the business of capitals. IF they do not represent the seat and legitimacy of power, why have they been the prime target of military efforts since war began? The Vichy French government was a NEW government that met the requirements of the Nazi victors. Now I said 90% of the time, it could well be 80%, but it is damned sure not 50/50. The Poles are very obviously part of the percentage that did not fit the historic mold. They did in fact stand up in the face of tyrany and continue to fight. So the comment was not that it is a done deal all the time that the lose of a capital is fatal, just most of the time.

mrWHO- The Polish people do indeed have a right to be very proud of standing up and continuing to fight. The exploits of the Polish forces are well known and respected. Shortly after the end of Warsaw Pact I had the honor of flying with the Polish Air Cavalry for a couple days. Other than their drinking habits (even better than the Brits!), they were arguable some of the most professional and motivated troops I had the pleasure to meet.
 
Elendil

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yasotay wrote:
Elendil- First my comment that the ranks of the Soban swelled was not meant to imply that the other Kiith would not also have seen a large increase in numbers. Indeed the Kiith being rather short on people (recall it is canon that some of the smaller Kiith with very few, consolidated with the larger Kiith for survival after the return). The Soban however, are not concerned with background and history of its members. Sort of like the French Foreign Legion after WW2, much of it spoke German as well as French.


Yes point accepted however my view was that the Soban did not seem to be the number one choice because of the vast majority of the migrants will have to be engineers and other specialist (in other words civilians that have little to do with military matters ? things Soban is famous for) to help the rebuilding of Hiigara. Yes as a nomad Kith, the Sobanni wasn?t that concerned with background of its people, so accepting a lot of different people of different species can be taken into account. However there will be concerns with the loyalty of these new members of the Kith and that will be the main factor limiting the amount of people the Soban will accept.

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yasotay wrote:
I am not aware of any work that indicates that the leadership of the Kiith is hereditary or any less than a capable person being given the authority. So I cannot agree with the comment about irrational actors being in charge. Tends to lead to instability. I would hope that the Hiigaran government, in order to be a successful galactic economic power is more liberal oriented than being a bunch of oligarchs mandating the disenchanted masses to fight for them.


It is heavily hinted that the Hiigaran government is occupied with not many capable leaders. Think back to HWC (dunno if its is cannon or simply quasi-cannon) and the inability of the HGN to respond to the Beast threat (if you remove the shocking loss of its many fleets etc, there should be a greater effort to get everything together instead of relying on bickering Kiths to bring about defence for the planet). From there it can be seen that the power relies on many different Kiths unable to work together. This does not make the Hiigaran Nation any less unsuccessful than a more liberal republican version, a diverse Kith system allows for more radical approaches and generally is really the system to go for in a young rebuilding nation.

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yasotay wrote:
I can agree that the invasion was across a broad front as you suggest and that the Vaygr did attempt ambushes and a broad net to capture the core (the real objective). Having a little knowledge of things military I doubt the detailed series of ambush where established as much as contingency reactions from the cascade of failure. It is well known in the military that the more complex a plan the faster it unravels when it goes wrong (and they always go wrong).


That is why the plan was ridiculously simple in Makaan?s favour. Like I said, Plan A was simply to overrun the Hiigaran controlled space with superior numbers. It was a very simply plan that could have succeeded if Makaan did not underestimate the resilience of Karen. Plan B was necessary a divergence of Makaan?s earlier plans and his quick thinking as well (you do realise he would need to hunt the Bentusi down once the second core is in his hands and then clear the path through the keepers) which would give him a healthy advantage in military terms (he can set his own terms in dealing with the Hiigarans. Anytime once he had the Dreadnought he could have simply destroyed the Hiigaran fleet but he preferred to wait and lead them further into Balcora where he incorrectly believed he could win) Because of the utilisation of the cores both sides held no specific speed advantages but the Hiigarans were disadvantaged from the start as they simply were either following or being tagged by the VGR forces. As a result Makaan require no complex planning to destroy the Hiigarans ? his desire to untie the three cores was ultimately his downfall as his obsession eventually lead him to lose his advantage.

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yasotay wrote:
As too the business of capitals. IF they do not represent the seat and legitimacy of power, why have they been the prime target of military efforts since war began? The Vichy French government was a NEW government that met the requirements of the Nazi victors. Now I said 90% of the time, it could well be 80%, but it is damned sure not 50/50. The Poles are very obviously part of the percentage that did not fit the historic mold. They did in fact stand up in the face of tyrany and continue to fight. So the comment was not that it is a done deal all the time that the lose of a capital is fatal, just most of the time.


Ahh you have been trying to apply this form of terra based warfare to space. One point is that a attacking a capital merely removes one of the symbols of the nation's power and weath, it does nothing more except to perhaps lower moralle. A capital usually have no significant military facilities - most are located in underground silos or in other bases (or in case of space based nations, located on other planets etc)

Vichy France was never a legally accepted gvernment by anyone apart from the Nazi - who had really no right to acknowledge a nation created from their conquest. And no Vichy france never met Nazi requirements - it tried to aid in rounding up Jews and participateed in s ome soft campaigns but it was not in any time a stanch Nazi ally.
Edited by Elendil on 11-10-2005 08:29
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yasotay
E- I will buy the notion that a space nation might not be as reliant on a specific spacial location for validity of sovereignty. Of course there are far more areas than just the military that keeps a government in charge. All of the varied sections that deal with diplomacy, finance, interior, transportation, etc. Loss of these capabilites in some cases would be more catastrophic than the loss of the ministry of defense. Still if alternate sites are available it could mitigate some of the significance of the loss. While a star kingdom may function differently, human history is replete with failed nations with the capital falling to an enemy.

One could argue that the Soviet government was fully prepared to abandon Moskow for the Ural mountains with the approach of the German Army. A wonderful debat that, so I will agree that it may be different to an extent in galactic terms.

However if the PDS'verse is more UN-like than bi-polar (Axis/Allies or NATO/WARPAC), the loss of capital would certainly allow for a reduction in legitimacy of a government as there is more potential for varied views of its significance. Whereas in a bi-polar 'verse you either accept that the country is fallen, or, that the exile government is still legitimate. Certainly a report that Washington DC, Moskow or Beijing, had fallen would produce shock throughout the governments around the world. Regarding the value of that news would depend on your view of the country in question.

I agree that the all the Kiith would see a significant increase as the displaced population attempts to assimilate into the new social norms.
 
Elendil
Y- Really good points there, the main argument I believe right now we are both having difficulty defining is the legality of a government and the improtance of a capital. I argee that sometimes the fall fo a capital will mean in the collapse of that particular nation and culture (for example the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans spelled the end of the Byzantine Empire and the fall fo Rome - though one can argue the sacking of Rome 70 years before hand was the main catalyst in the collapse of the western empire). However in these cases the attacked nation was already on its last legs with a lack of population and a lack of people loyal to their state, it was only a matter of time before they collapsed from within or from external pressure. Often in these dying states it will be heavily centralised around the capital - hence the misconception of a fall in capital will result in the loss of legality for any surviving representative of that particular nation. Now Hiigara doesn't seem like a dying declining state to me, the argument that with its capital overtaken will result in the possible legal recognition of a particular nation is not that strong in the Homeworld universe.

I doubt the PDS universe is UN like. For one, I only count two true powers (other neutral states are not counted) with a host of protectorates etc. And in the PDS universe, a capital being seiged and attacked is a very rare event (due to a lack of general leadership in the VGR forces and a lack of ships etc from the HGN). If a capital does get attacked, chances are if it falls, the government will remain just as valid.

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yasotay
Well we certainly agree on the probablility of the PDS'verse being bi-polar, with varied level of allied and neutral states orbiting around the two powers. I do not count the esoterica, such as the T-MAT or other uber-races as viable within the PDS'verse.

It is fair to say (as much as a terrestrial person can) that a star nation as pluralistic as is the Hiigaran nation could better absorb the significant loss of its capital. However the effect on moral would have been massive, I believe, in either direction such that ; "We lost it again! This is useless." or "We've been here before, and the last guy was made a cropper too!" Fortunately for us this specific point is academic as Hiigara is still Hiigaran. Of course the nomadic nature of the Vaygr make them even less suseptable to loss of a planetary capital (although this is a irrelevant to a space born society). However if you equate the Vaygr clan home ships (a PDS'ism- exceedingly massive ship that is the varied clans sacred home) with a capital, then they could very well be more susceptible to the loss on a clan level, but the overall population would not see the loss as a crushing blow to the nation at large.

I would have to say that the more centralized the power structure of a star nations political apparatus, the higher the probability that the loss of the capital planet would impinge upon its functionality. Certainly if the nation is in decline and less viable economically it would only exacerbate the effect.
 
Elendil
Y- Agreed, although it never happened, i have to admit that if the Hiigaran's lost hiigara they will be very much devestated. However in the long run it will make them stronger and enable them to unite better once again to fight off old or new foes. As for the Vaygr's there don't really have a true capital, any big losses would only slow down their advances.

In Hiigara, what was the ruling diaiamd like? Was it a senate like device with all the kith'sas and representatives working together or was it more of a a parliament like device with hundreds of members? What about the Galactic Council, what say do they have in the current PDS universE?
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